Please read the entire post before losing you mind. :-[
We all know the current system, and I think we could probably mostly agree that that system helps with some of the unbalanced over powered combos that you see in the realm. What if we switched to a system like this instead:
Base line stats for your race is how you start the game. No 100 cps to distribute. Every level you get exactly 12 cps. No matter how far over baseline you go, the cost to raise a stat +1 is 1 cp. Based on your class type, the engine decides how to distribute your 12 cps giving preference to the 2 or 3 stats that will benefit you the most.
Example:
Mystic: +3 agility, +3 health, +3 strength, +1 willpower, +1 intellect, +1 charm every single level.
Mage: +4 intellect, +2 health, + 2 strength, +1 willpower, +1 charm, +1 agility every single level.
Warrior: +4 strength, +4 heath, +1 everything else.
The concept of stat maxes would be removed and would be limited only by how high you could train your character on a realm.
Something else to ponder speaking of balance... How about have spellcasting have some effect on spell damage? or raise the spell caps to compensate for level 80 charchs?
I dislike it and here is why, what if I decide to make something like a neko warrior? I want to raise strength and health more than I want to raise agility for enc and such. Same with a hogre gypsy/bard/ninja/mage there are stats I want to raise very fast and others that I want to raise later on.
Quote from: y2duhh on Aug 27, 2012, 09:33 PM
I dislike it and here is why, what if I decide to make something like a neko warrior? I want to raise strength and health more than I want to raise agility for enc and such. Same with a hogre gypsy/bard/ninja/mage there are stats I want to raise very fast and others that I want to raise later on.
It could obviously be tweaked to account for races or the racial baselines could be tweaked, or the concept of race based stats could be removed all together for that matter in lieu of class based stats.
Quote from: wokesmeed on Aug 27, 2012, 09:32 PM
Something else to ponder speaking of balance... How about have spellcasting have some effect on spell damage? or raise the spell caps to compensate for level 80 charchs?
Well it's possible to do this obviously. Perhaps a more balanced solution would be to make higher spell casting increase your odds of getting the higher end damage based on the difficulty associated with the spell but leave the current caps in place.
My gut reaction without giving this much thought is.. It work be great to have no true max stats; however not have players distribute stats on their own takes away from the gaming experience (trying new builds, learning what works best).
It could be coded so that the user had some control over the distribution of the cps with the provision that each stat must get something each level but not allow players to become super high in any one stat early on in the game.
This is a terrible idea and strikes at the heart of the MajorMUD style gameplay. Auto assigning of stats is how modern games have become so one dimensional (Diablo3 anyone?)
Making everything level based totally eliminates the mid-game mud action that everyone thrives on. I love how in recent times, with more detailed investigation using MMUDExplore, one can precisely design their build. For example, certain weapons become available at level 30 but not everyone is going to be Q&D at exactly level 30. It takes a certain race/class/agi/enc combo to aim to be max Q&D with that particular weapon - one may have to make sacrifices in things like health to achieve this. Other examples are things like a 'stealthy' warlock or a highly magic resistant mystic.
The system as it was originally intended makes it fun for players I would say in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. We all know that scripting is a 100% accepted fact of life now but people do still spend hours at the keys in the mid-range PVPing and boss-fighting. At some point there are 'too many' CPs, either because of stat limits or because stat-disadvantaged characters can 'catch up' and certain races become 'overpowered' just based on levels. Anything level 60+ is 'experimental.' If anything you would want to keep the CP system and cap it at say level 60. So no more CPs above 60. THEN your cookie-cutter system takes over...warriors get +4/+4, mystics +3 etc until whatever level you like. PVP rules would change so once you hit 61 the PVP "range" would be 61-200. That is not really well thought out but it would be better than cookie-cutter from level 1.
I like the idea, but the current combat system needs to change for it to work.
Mages don't benefit from increasing int as much as combat classes get for increasing str.
Stealth classes don't benefit from raising agil as much as tanks get for raising str.
In short, this change makes tanks even more OP.
Quote from: essgee on Aug 27, 2012, 10:16 PM
...one may have to make sacrifices ...
some of these english rules are so stupid. Isn't that the gayest correct grammar you've ever heard?
Changing cps would bring some zing, and I agree that things like half-ogre mystic should be crippled. this is a way to do it. i also agree that control of your cps is very majormud-esque, so i would vote no for streamlining it. However, i heard a glimpse of formula that had to do with penalizing non primary stats, and I like that a lot. It should be expensive as all hell for a half-ogre to become decent with dodge, etc.
edit: "Isn't that the gayest correct grammar
one's ever heard?" fixed for gayness
Quote from: Vile on Aug 27, 2012, 10:33 PM
I like the idea, but the current combat system needs to change for it to work.
Mages don't benefit from increasing int as much as combat classes get for increasing str.
Stealth classes don't benefit from raising agil as much as tanks get for raising str.
In short, this change makes tanks even more OP.
I just threw those out as examples but yes other things would have to change as well. Take Crumbs over on non pvp. Level 101 mage. Hasn't seen his average round go up in something like 40 levels. Now granted that's partially content due to caps and lack of content beyond baseline, but it also shows how the basic mechanics of the current engine could stand to be improved.
Oh and dislike any sort of auto assigned stats.
Race could play a role along with class in determining how costly a stat is to raise.
Half-Ogre Warrior can raise STR easier than a Dark-elf Warrior, but the delf has an easier time raising agil.
Quote from: Vile on Aug 27, 2012, 11:07 PM
Half-Ogre Warrior can raise STR easier than a Dark-elf Warrior, but the delf has an easier time raising agil.
An easy way of what I was trying to say
I'm completely against enforced stat assignment. Whenever you take some of the choice about your character away, the personal involvement with that characters creation is lessened. Part of what has made MajorMUD so good and addictive is the opportunity to create the character the way you want to. The downside to this is that some race and class combinations are under or over powered. In my experience, this is due to a mixture of the current combat system, and characters that are designed to be good at one thing, but not another. It is possible to end up with broken builds. Anyone remember Wills druid from a few pushes ago? The dodge, MR and combat system at the time made it almost unkillable. These are isolated situations, and require us to look at the way the engine is designed, rather than the character builds.
I understand completely the idea behind this, and I'm glad that you are thinking about it. Games with user assigned character attributes are incredibly hard to balance. This is why almost none of the MMOs allow it, and why Diablo III doesn't allow it except through gear - gear that can be purchased with real money (yes that may sound cynical, but the conflict of interest inherent in that system seems obvious to me). Thinking about it and proposing a solution to a major problem that our game has for the long term is probably the most important thing that can happen on these forums for the future of this game. One thing I have noticed is that every time a discussion is started about fixing game mechanics, it dies off before there has been any movement from a discussion phase in to a decision phase.
I feel that the cost of removing player attachment is too high. I know that it would remove a great deal my interest in this game in the long term. I don't want my dwarf cleric to be exactly (or only 15% different) from every other dwarf cleric in the game. This will suddenly push all of the emphasis on to gear - and we have a game that limits the powerful items. I think that the PVP side of this game will likely feel much more strongly about this cost than the non-PVP, as I suspect that the involvement of the player with their character is greater for those of us that choose to risk our gear and our characters to the whims of other players. I may well be wrong. I propose that removing player choice about how their character grows is the wrong way to create a sense of balance in the game.
The second argument that I have for not removing it is that CP is fairly deeply entrenched in this game. If you remove it, or remove the part you have in it, it reduces how much GreaterMUD feels like MajorMUD. Yes, MajorMUD is flawed, but we as players are here because it is our flawed community. If we lesson the identity of this re-creation of the game, why are we playing and restoring this game, instead of just creating an entirely new MUD with our own rules, systems and content?
I think that one thing that we should consider about Major/GreaterMUD is that it does not need to be perfectly balanced. Part of the wild nature of the game is that somebody can come up with a new build, design their character around it, and play their character in such a way as to exploit their strengths while avoiding it's weaknesses - this should be encouraged, not curtailed. The great balancer is in player skill and player choice. We should try to balance the game by putting a greater emphasis on the effects of player choice and personal skill. The character that you design is a major part of that player choice.
Since I started writing this post earlier in the day there have been some good ideas about changing some game mechanics, making classes have a primary and therefor easier to upgrade stat and similar. I like the ideas, though I feel that currently we already have all the penalties we need based on race for the different stats - especially now that we have increased the maximum stats. Base stats penalise people on how easy it is to get their stats high already, do we need bonuses for class as well? You might find yourself unbalancing classes with races quite a bit, and is that what we really want? Overall, these are really a part of a different discussion than what the original post lays out.
I'll try to find time either later on tonight or tomorrow, and I will start a new forum post where we can discuss changes to mechanics, and the pros and cons of those changes. I'll try to keep the first post updated with everyones ideas (it may take me a little while to compile them all so bear with me) as well as genuine arguments for and against those mechanics and their proposed effects upon the game. If we can get enough discussion of the varied ideas and we have some core ideas hammered out I'll put up a vote to see which ones people are the most in favour of. I hope that we can come to some genuine conclusions about what direction we the community want the game to take. Ideas are excellent. Decisions get things done.
Quote from: Zetetic on Aug 28, 2012, 01:50 AM
The second argument that I have for not removing it is that CP is fairly deeply entrenched in this game. If you remove it, or remove the part you have in it, it reduces how much GreaterMUD feels like MajorMUD. Yes, MajorMUD is flawed, but we as players are here because it is our flawed community. If we lesson the identity of this re-creation of the game, why are we playing and restoring this game, instead of just creating an entirely new MUD with our own rules, systems and content?
Since I started writing this post earlier in the day there have been some good ideas about changing some game mechanics, making classes have a primary and therefor easier to upgrade stat and similar. I like the ideas, though I feel that currently we already have all the penalties we need based on race for the different stats - especially now that we have increased the maximum stats. Base stats penalise people on how easy it is to get their stats high already, do we need bonuses for class as well? You might find yourself unbalancing classes with races quite a bit, and is that what we really want? Overall, these are really a part of a different discussion than what the original post lays out.
I was about to say something, but just as I hit reply, this post popped up. Those are two of the points I was going to make, so thanks for saving me the effort!
I enjoy making odd builds, or having my char really good at something at the expense of other things, instead of being a jack of all master of none. Any type of restriction of choice in the character creation process takes away some of the appeal that got us hooked on this game in the first place.
I thought of a small compromise. Something like the current system, with the same amount of cp's to distribute at the same increasing cost, along with class-based stat increases. Classes may have 2 primary stats, and the player gets to choose which stat is increased by 1 that level, and spend their cp's. That would give character creation a little of that zing, while not changing the classic MajorMUD feel too much. I don't know much about game mechanics or how this would affect things in the long run, but it seemed like a decent idea to build on.
Quote from: Zetetic on Aug 28, 2012, 01:50 AM
... it reduces how much GreaterMUD feels like MajorMUD. Yes, MajorMUD is flawed, but we as players are here because it is our flawed community. If we lesson the identity of this re-creation of the game...
I'm firmly against this point of view. This screams "no progress"; if you allow this type of behavior, you will have people crying 'identity' wolf about even minutia. If we explore *better* ways to do something, it's better for a reason.
I still feel like you can have some automated cps mixed in with some control -- enough to have a customized character. This umbrella idea is good, and should be explored actively.
In the short-term this seems underpowered, dont get me wrong this is a good thing for character building, in the long-term this is VERY good for the higher levels as Gardner is saying, with no max stats a level 50 half-ogre warrior per the example could potentially have 200 str & health + base_stat and at lvl 50 would have accumalated ~600 cp points to spend on support stats, this would be seriously better than the current system. I really like this idea, but as another poster pointed out casters would need to be brought up to the same level of scalability. Spell damage based on intellect + items would be a nice addition.
/flame on!
I was wondering how long it would be, if ever, before someone actually ran the numbers rather than give just a knee jerk reaction because "it's not MajorMUD" or because the numbers seems small.
Another point that should be brought up as part of any effort to rebalance the game, Duhh mentioned half ogre mystics, ninjas, etc needing specific stats raised faster early on. It's my opinion that half ogre should suck and anything other than a pure combat class regardless of level. There is no reason why this one race should dominate the game in almost every class.
The changes I have suggested here would still allow you to play a hog mage, but you do so with the knowledge that he is going to be gimped until the higher levels, which IS how it should be. Half Ogres are stupid, non agile for a reason.
Quote from: Gardner Denver on Aug 28, 2012, 06:28 PM
Another point that should be brought up as part of any effort to rebalance the game, Duhh mentioned half ogre mystics, ninjas, etc needing specific stats raised faster early on. It's my opinion that half ogre should suck and anything other than a pure combat class regardless of level. There is no reason why this one race should dominate the game in almost every class.
The changes I have suggested here would still allow you to play a hog mage, but you do so with the knowledge that he is going to be gimped until the higher levels, which IS how it should be. Half Ogres are stupid, non agile for a reason.
Half Ogres don't dominate the game. Half ogre mystic doesn't get forms and can't dodge particularly well due to low agility and charm. Half ogre ninja (or any other sneaking class) can't dodge well or backstab other players well at high levels due to low stealth. Even with the +40 stats it takes a shitload of CPs to get a half ogre with high agility. Half ogre casters aren't great unless they are high level or have good gear. Half ogres in parties also seem to be targeted by monsters the most due to your recent changes in that area.
Addy, you're right about Half-Ogres not getting an advantage in combat. That advantage is nothing compared to a hog's survivability. If you wanted to translate hitpoints into armor (dodge or ac), then it would go something like:
Hog mystic - 500 hps
Neko mystic - 350 hps
Now, if you get {insert any combat: bs, magic, regular round} in pvp for 320, the neko is screwed, and can't hang up or he will die. The hog still has this option.
Because agility plateaus for offensiveness for mystic, it wouldn't matter if you had 40 agility or 140 at that point. You might get some more dodge in, but that is a dice roll. What is NOT a dice roll is that the half ogre WILL survive an attack & a hang up pen.
Also, I disagree with not backstabbing well, but I don't know any numbers about it. They are just as much a threat as a Nekojin {class}
Quote from: Torque on Aug 29, 2012, 12:35 PM
Also, I disagree with not backstabbing well, but I don't know any numbers about it. They are just as much a threat as a Nekojin {class}
What I was referring to here was backstab accuracy in PVP at high levels. A HOG sneaker typically has the lowest stealth out of all the races, which means they have the lowest BS ACC. This makes it harder for them to land a backstab, particularly if their opponent has very high perception, AC or dodge.
Quote from: addycorp on Aug 29, 2012, 03:46 PM
What I was referring to here was backstab accuracy in PVP at high levels. A HOG sneaker typically has the lowest stealth out of all the races, which means they have the lowest BS ACC. This makes it harder for them to land a backstab, particularly if their opponent has very high perception, AC or dodge.
Outside of a few people who roam in gangs loaded with sneakers, how many people actually use backstabs as a primary first attack in pvp at higher levels? While it's true that it gives you the initial round initiative, a normal attack from almost any class at high levels will do far more damage.
I cannot agree with half-ogres having to be stupid. we are playing heros right? our characters are not based on the monsters in the realm. our characters are supposed to be able to be heavy sided in the beginning. sometimes i go for str, to increase damage and lower enc. sometimes i go for agil because im not carrying any equip and i want speed. what if i am a skinny above average int half-ogre? what if i was an exceptionally fast and maybe even skinny? your telling me there cant be a body building goblin??
there are maybe better combos than other, but actually they all seem to balance out. but to take out the ability to build your character just to cater to whiners is pretty lame imo. mystics are supposed to be kickass. it makes sense that a punching machine might be a half-ogre. same with ninja, have you ever seen an american standing next to a chinese person. are you telling me that because americans are larger on average that thewy would make a horrible ninja? maybe, but there starting stats are lower.
hey i have an idea, why dont we just put foam pads on the ends of all our dirks?
Quote from: mr sinister on Aug 30, 2012, 09:57 PM
I cannot agree with half-ogres having to be stupid. we are playing heros right? our characters are not based on the monsters in the realm. our characters are supposed to be able to be heavy sided in the beginning. sometimes i go for str, to increase damage and lower enc. sometimes i go for agil because im not carrying any equip and i want speed. what if i am a skinny above average int half-ogre? what if i was an exceptionally fast and maybe even skinny? your telling me there cant be a body building goblin??
there are maybe better combos than other, but actually they all seem to balance out. but to take out the ability to build your character just to cater to whiners is pretty lame imo. mystics are supposed to be kickass. it makes sense that a punching machine might be a half-ogre. same with ninja, have you ever seen an american standing next to a chinese person. are you telling me that because americans are larger on average that thewy would make a horrible ninja? maybe, but there starting stats are lower.
hey i have an idea, why dont we just put foam pads on the ends of all our dirks?
I kind of prefer the way mmud started with all races maxing at 100 in each stat..the only difference being their max stats. Of course at the time leveling beyond level 12 wasnt possible.
Quote from: mr sinister on Aug 30, 2012, 09:57 PM
but to take out the ability to build your character just to cater to whiners is pretty lame imo.
Nobody said do it for whiners. The goal is to look at methods of rebalancing a game that is currently horribly out of balance, especially at the higher levels. I would submit that the fact you stated that they do balance out means you probably haven't played a really big character, at least not on GreaterMUD.
Quote from: Gardner Denver on Aug 30, 2012, 11:34 PM
Nobody said do it for whiners. The goal is to look at methods of rebalancing a game that is currently horribly out of balance, especially at the higher levels. I would submit that the fact you stated that they do balance out means you probably haven't played a really big character, at least not on GreaterMUD.
It would not be possible to simply change the way CPs are added to a character to create 'balance'. If thats what the point of this idea is, then I have to say your concept is flawed.
CPs merely contribute to and exaggerate balance issues created by formulas that were not designed for the level spread we see in the game. To further compound the issue so much of the game has been poorly designed, or at least designed without the combat formulas in mind. The parts of the game that were designed for the combat formulas were not redesigned when the combat formulas changed. Thus there is no balance at any stage of the game anymore.
Painfully the setup of mmud is not even conducive to the concept of balance. How do you balance characters? Should characters be on equal footing based on level? Total Experience? Should they be balanced for their pve or pvp abilities or some conglomeration?
In essence creating balance, of any sort, will require a large overhaul of many of the game features.
To me your idea takes the balance issues out of the player's hands and simply automates the balance issues, maybe with some expanding upon the idea-with its goals clearly stated-this could be worked into something workable. But without a clearly defined goal, to me at least, this idea falls flat and I cannot envision a way to work with it.
Quote from: Stalkerr on Aug 31, 2012, 01:52 AM
It would not be possible to simply change the way CPs are added to a character to create 'balance'. If thats what the point of this idea is, then I have to say your concept is flawed.
Flawed more or less than the currently flawed system? If you know perfection, state it.
Quote from: Stalkerr on Aug 31, 2012, 01:52 AM
.. combat formulas were not redesigned when the combat formulas changed. Thus there is no balance at any stage of the game anymore.
Isn't that (and other things) why we are looking at options for rebalancing?
Quote from: Stalkerr on Aug 31, 2012, 01:52 AMBut without a clearly defined goal, to me at least, this idea falls flat and I cannot envision a way to work with it.
Although particularly wordy, I agree. What's a good clearly defined goal, DC?
I wish I was better at communication so my comments didn't sound abrasive; not my intention. We have a thing in the Army: You don't raise a concern without proposing a solution. Defined goal: NOT overhauling the whole combat system, and still making it work by changing one concept at a time. The first concept? CPS and how Half-Ogre Mystics dominate with half the agility of other races.
In my opinion, if you get the system TOO right, it's gonna be like WOWcraft and no one is gonna have any advantages.
edit: (and everyone will do the same damage, etc.)
Im not particularly a fan of this concept. I feel it will drive the race/class chouces to be very narrow and youll see every ninja/mystic as a dark-elf and every warrior as a hog. There will be very little variety.
I also enjoy the odd build characters and the ability to raise stats as I see fit. If I am trying to script in an area that has particularly hard hitting monsters for the next few levels I might dump more into health, or vice versa.
This wasn't intended to be an end all and be all fix. It was intended to be a first step in the process of bringing balance to the game.
Quote from: Gardner Denver on Aug 31, 2012, 12:58 PM
This wasn't intended to be an end all and be all fix. It was intended to be a first step in the process of bringing balance to the game.
I just don't understand how this could possibly address balance issues. What issue is this intended to mitigate?
Quote from: Stalkerr on Aug 31, 2012, 02:23 PM
I just don't understand how this could possibly address balance issues. What issue is this intended to mitigate?
Part of the problem stems from being able to make hog <whatever> and dump the bulk of your cps into str/health making him supper fast, light, acc bonuses, and able to absorb big damage from any other char with little chance of dying. The system I'm suggesting requires you to bump up all of your stats each level rather than focus on just the one or 2 that make you more survivable. If done right it would also help slow the growth of newer players.
Quote from: Gardner Denver on Aug 31, 2012, 03:19 PM
Part of the problem stems from being able to make hog <whatever> and dump the bulk of your cps into str/health making him supper fast, light, acc bonuses, and able to absorb big damage from any other char with little chance of dying. The system I'm suggesting requires you to bump up all of your stats each level rather than focus on just the one or 2 that make you more survivable. If done right it would also help slow the growth of newer players.
I find that is more of an issue with a broken combat acc formula, a broken concept for the smash command, and spellcasters not doing enough damage vs low MR targets.
First I Suggest an change in acc formulas
-Agility Based
Public Function CalcAccuracy(ByVal Encumberance As Integer, _
ByVal Combat As Integer, _
ByVal Level As Integer, _
ByVal Agility As Integer, _
ByVal Intellect As Integer, _
ByVal Charm As Integer, _
Optional ByVal ItemAccuracy As Integer = 0) As Integer
Dim Result As Integer = 0
Result = ItemAccuracy
Combat = Combat + 2
If Result = 0 Then Result = 1
If Encumberance < 33 Then
Result = Result + (15 - (Encumberance / 10))
End If
Result = (((_FindLevelValue(Level) * (Combat - 1)) + _
(((Combat * 2) + (Level / 2) + (Result / 2)) - 2)) * 2) + _
((Agility - 50) / 3) + ((Intellect - 50) / 6) + ((Charm - 50) / 10)
Return Result
End Function
Bash and Smash keep current formula
-Str Based
Public Function CalcAccuracy(ByVal Encumberance As Integer, _
ByVal Combat As Integer, _
ByVal Level As Integer, _
ByVal Agility As Integer, _
ByVal Strength As Integer, _
Optional ByVal ItemAccuracy As Integer = 0) As Integer
Dim Result As Integer = 0
Result = ItemAccuracy
Combat = Combat + 2
If Result = 0 Then Result = 1
If Encumberance < 33 Then
Result = Result + (15 - (Encumberance / 10))
End If
Result = (((_FindLevelValue(Level) * (Combat - 1)) + _
(((Combat * 2) + (Level / 2) + (Result / 2)) - 2)) * 2) + _
((Strength - 50) / 3) + ((Agility - 50) / 6)
Return Result
End Function
This leaves a str only build possible but limits the characters that build that way to using the bash and smash commands. Meaning that you'll have to give up damage for defense. I also suggest changing the smash command so that its primary focus is on utility rather than damage. One version of this idea would make it engage the BASH command, but it would use your first 200 energy to attempt to knockdown(thus lowering the dodge and ac of the target) the enemy with your shield with damage based on a number of factors but namely the Max Damage stat on the shield(spiked shields) and the AC and DR of the shield.
As I believe that characters should be rewarded for balancing their stats and that fast, intelligent characters should do more crit damage I suggest a modifier along these lines.
When Calculating Max Damage for crits include
((int-50)/10)=X
((agi-50)/10)=y
X and Y always at least 0
Add (X+Y)-6 to max damage (before multiplier)
Meaning that If you had 100 Int and 100 agility you would get an additional +4 max damage(before the critical hit multiplier is rolled) and if you had 20 in and 20 agility you would have a -6 max damage(before the critical hit multiplier is rolled)
I believe that spellcasters need to do more damage, and that they should convert spellcasting that exceeds 100% casting rate to an MR reduction on their target. Something along the lines of SC over 100% coverted to negative MR at 4:1 ratio. Meaning that low willpower characters would be prone to a possibility of massive damage from incoming spells.
I've taken thses idea a bit out of context, as they are from the full rework that I'm working on, but hopefully they are a directed toward the concerns that you have.
This code looks awesome. Vitoc throw up another Realm! There's gotta be a way DC (or someone) can streamline or superscede code without actually viewing source.
I would definitely spend hours hand testing stuff like this. Right now, I don't know what I'd be testing... just waiting around for a reset.
Quote from: Stalkerr on Aug 31, 2012, 07:01 PM
-Str Based
Public Function CalcAccuracy(ByVal Encumberance As Integer, _
ByVal Combat As Integer, _
ByVal Level As Integer, _
ByVal Agility As Integer, _
ByVal Strength As Integer, _
Optional ByVal ItemAccuracy As Integer = 0) As Integer
Dim Result As Integer = 0
Result = ItemAccuracy
Combat = Combat + 2
If Result = 0 Then Result = 1
If Encumberance < 33 Then
Result = Result + (15 - (Encumberance / 10))
End If
Result = (((_FindLevelValue(Level) * (Combat - 1)) + _
(((Combat * 2) + (Level / 2) + (Result / 2)) - 2)) * 2) + _
((Strength - 50) / 3) + ((Agility - 50) / 6)
Return Result
End Function
This is part of what makes hogs so OP now for silk classes. They can get huge bonuses from their strength due to a crappy formula and low encumbrance where as a halfling, who should be super fast and accurate has to struggle to stay below 33% enc unless they run naked or almost naked.
Having said that, the change you are suggesting to agility based would make hogs (due to their very low max agility) almost non viable as almost anything. I think you'd find that the balance might be found by using some combination of both strength and agility.
Current formula uses (Str - 50) / 3 and you proposed (Agi - 50) / 3. What about (((Str - 50) / 6) + (Agi - 50) / 6) instead? This would reduce the over all effectiveness of both stats on acc but not gimp one stat in favor of another stat.
Quote from: Gardner Denver on Aug 31, 2012, 10:29 PM
This is part of what makes hogs so OP now for silk classes. They can get huge bonuses from their strength due to a crappy formula and low encumbrance where as a halfling, who should be super fast and accurate has to struggle to stay below 33% enc unless they run naked or almost naked.
Having said that, the change you are suggesting to agility based would make hogs (due to their very low max agility) almost non viable as almost anything. I think you'd find that the balance might be found by using some combination of both strength and agility.
Current formula uses (Str - 50) / 3 and you proposed (Agi - 50) / 3. What about (((Str - 50) / 6) + (Agi - 50) / 6) instead? This would reduce the over all effectiveness of both stats on acc but not gimp one stat in favor of another stat.
Well, there is still Result = (((_FindLevelValue(Level) * (Combat - 1)) + _
(((Combat * 2) + (Level / 2) + (Result / 2)) - 2)) * 2) +
which accounts for the majority of a character's acc, and I leave the option of bash open for str based characters. I don't recall exactly what you guys did to bash, but there is something wrong with it right now. The combat formulas I worked out had an attack type modifer for acc in the VS ac VS dodge formulas and I think you guys were already modifying ACC by some random percentage. I've no idea if that percentage was removed when we added the new formulas. I'd guess no because I didnt specifically mention that they should be removed.
I mean we could go through the number on how that formula works out, but I don't have them infornt of me atm, and the findlevelvalue part almost always trolls my brain when I'm working it out on paper.
Truthfully though, yeah suddenly half ogre thieves are going to be pretty bad. As will hog missys, gypsies, priests, druids. I don't think HOG was ever intended to be a viable choice for these classes though. I think you'll find that the innate combat capabilities of warriors and their kin can overcome the acc disadvantage that Hogs have pretty early in their lives as adventures...even the combat-2's will eventually overcome it if they really have some strong desire to play a HOG.
I think the hog race was designed mostly for the tank role though, which is normally high defense coupled with low damage.
I'm polarizing towards "debuffing" hogs as this discussion continues. It's only a 30% exp chart, and I think having high HPS should come at a high cost. It should be an inverse proportion, really. Gaunts should do high magic damage with low hps. Hogs should do low physical damage with high hit points, but these two are just examples.
Honestly, I think hit point maxes should come down across the board a tiny bit, and health regen should go up +50% from where it is. That's probably another discussion though.
Quote from: Torque on Sep 01, 2012, 06:22 PM
I'm polarizing towards "debuffing" hogs as this discussion continues. It's only a 30% exp chart, and I think having high HPS should come at a high cost. It should be an inverse proportion, really. Gaunts should do high magic damage with low hps. Hogs should do low physical damage with high hit points, but these two are just examples.
Honestly, I think hit point maxes should come down across the board a tiny bit, and health regen should go up +50% from where it is. That's probably another discussion though.
There is a limit to how much your race choice effects your character...you'll eventually be effective no matter what race you choose or how you build your stats, but ultimately your race choice defines what theme your class will take. Making an adjustment to max hps and hp rgen, to do it right, would take a pretty big overhaul of the monster database..specifically some of the more powerufl spellcasting bosses. Consider ozzies room, which is trolly enough without reduced hp.
Quote from: Torque on Sep 01, 2012, 06:22 PM
I'm polarizing towards "debuffing" hogs as this discussion continues. It's only a 30% exp chart, and I think having high HPS should come at a high cost. It should be an inverse proportion, really. Gaunts should do high magic damage with low hps. Hogs should do low physical damage with high hit points, but these two are just examples.
Honestly, I think hit point maxes should come down across the board a tiny bit, and health regen should go up +50% from where it is. That's probably another discussion though.
If anything, from a PVP point of view, hps needs to be drastically increased. Rounding someone in pvp is as unskillful as it gets and imo should never happen.
Ok, I have a suggestion of several changes made as a combination to improve our current combat system as well as several race/class imbalances that I see. My reasons and predicted results are listed below.
Decrease critical damage multiplier to x3 (from x4, leaving the rest of that damage calculation the same)
Increase min and max HP per level of all classes by 4 or perhaps 5
Impose a 10% HP penalty for any hangup at all times (in pvp or not)
*Increase HP regen when resting (exact amount or calculation yet to be determined - ideas please?)
Remove strength requirements for weapons (optional)
Intended positive effects:
-Decreases the comparative value of high half ogre hps.
-Improves survivability of low health races drastically - they will now be usable and we should see more of them.
-Should stop or drastically reduce rounding from both PVE, boss battles and PVP.
-Makes backstab a more powerful attack, valuable in both PVE and PVP.
-Reduces the average damage of all combat classes, giving an effective buff to spellcasters.
-Stops abuse of hanging up as a solution for escaping bad situations in game. It can still be used, but you only get a few shots at it.
-Does not require content changes and as such can be more easily implemented (and then tested).
-Makes low strength races an option for combat classes, while still not suited to the task (optional).
Resultant negative effects:
-Will reduce exp/hr for most classes, however this will greatly improve the reliability of scripting. *This negative will hopefully be nullified or drastically reduced by the HP regen increase.
-People would need to set a slightly higher hangup HPs, however they have more total HPs so I do not see this as a problem.
After those changes are made, I suspect there would need to be some revisions, tweaking and probably a set of round two changes, such as removing or reducing the accuracy bonus for strength. I would prefer to see how the above played out before making that change however.
*Updated original post with new ideas/modifications.
Impose a 10% HP penalty for any hangup at all times (in pvp or not)
-Improves survivability of low health races drastically - they will now be usable and we should see more of them.
yep...sounds like u got er figured out cuz....
Quote from: Crabster on Sep 03, 2012, 05:39 PM
yep...sounds like u got er figured out cuz....
You did note the increase in HP per level that would mean that characters would need to hang up less? The suggestions that I made have to be taken as a whole, each one individually will not do anything useful. If you can give me your reasoning behind what I suggested not working, I'll add it to my post as a negative effect.
Now I did take your post as sarcastic in tone due to previous experience Crabs, if I was mistaken, I apologise.
Don't worry about Crabcakes, his words are always teetering on the 'useless' fence. I think once in awhile he has input, but his ambiguous[ly gay duo] tone is hardly helpful. Ever.
I think this is a good framework if we were to start testing without major overhauls. I htink DC's input is more of an overhaul -- and I would be very excited to help there, but if the mods aren't up to that just yet, then I think this is definitely a good start. It may turn up some other philosophy and get us going on an easier track towards an end goal either way.
The only point I'd have against it is the HP thing. It's my belief that healing is practically essential (so, overpowered), and having a large pool of hps wouldn't make it any less essential. The biggest reason I've brought up HP Regen increase across the board is to positively affect non healers.
So, throw some HP Regen on there and I'd vigorously put some man hours in on this framework.
I agree with Torque and Zetetic.
Player hps should be drastically higher and it should take a very short period of time to rest out of combat back to full hps.
The value of healers should be to keep everyone alive during combat.. combat that lasts for 30-40 rounds on difficult bosses, not 2 or 3. Same with PVP.
Heal spells should be buffed so healers have a chance to keep up with whatever damage is being delt to the party
This would make things very interesting.
Quote from: Torque on Sep 03, 2012, 06:53 PM
The only point I'd have against it is the HP thing. It's my belief that healing is practically essential (so, overpowered), and having a large pool of hps wouldn't make it any less essential. The biggest reason I've brought up HP Regen increase across the board is to positively affect non healers.
So, throw some HP Regen on there and I'd vigorously put some man hours in on this framework.
Increasing HPs is currently the only way that I can see to improve low HP class longevity. Since the introduction of the q&d combat system, both player and monster max damage output has increased to ridiculous levels. All of the low hp races and classes are at a severe disadvantage for normal gameplay because of this. Both players and bosses can be killed in a single round, simply from being unlucky. Being rounded is not fun. Dying at the Dark Phoenix because your character class/race can be one rounded by the boss is punishing for no reason other than the random number generator. How many gaunts or halflings do you see in the game? Ogres have been dominant because they are much easier to script and survive. The other thing is, once we reduce the max damage from combat, boss fights will become much harder, and players will need a greater HP pool to last the difference. However I hope that this will mean that people will run and survive and try again, rather than be one rounded, realise how much they hate the game and quit playing.
Quote from: Vile on Sep 04, 2012, 12:26 AM
Player hps should be drastically higher and it should take a very short period of time to rest out of combat back to full hps.
The value of healers should be to keep everyone alive during combat.. combat that lasts for 30-40 rounds on difficult bosses, not 2 or 3. Same with PVP.
Heal spells should be buffed so healers have a chance to keep up with whatever damage is being delt to the party
I initially wasn't sure that I agreed with the buff to HP regen - people pay in their exp table for healing, and while it is incredibly powerful, they generally pay for it in combat ability. I do see where you are coming from though and I like the idea. It would also help reduce the effect my changes have on exp/hr. I wouldn't want to increase it by too much or you tip the balance against the healers. Do you think that a 25% HP regen increase would be about right? I think that one will require a decent amount of testing to come to a final number, so would you agree to 25% as an initial implementation?
Vile: My changes are intended to be simple changes to game mechanics in order to make our fixes easy to implement. I think that with the buff to HPs healing will be more useful, as players are not likely to die from a single or even several rounds of combat. This gives the healer more time to focus their healing powers where it is needed the most before the attacker changes it's target. I do have some ideas on how to improve the scaling of player spells, including healing, buffs, curses and attack spells, but I'd like to see what my current proposal does to the game before making a start on spellcasting. I would leave it for what I would call 'round 2' changes.
I also wanted to note that I really like the ideas going in to majorly changing that combat formula that DC (and Gardners input) are providing. I really like the balance point of both strength and agility providing a bonus in equal measure. Keep up the thinking on that one, and if we could get the ideas in my above post implemented, I'd love to see the final version of your formula put in as a 'round 2' change.
As far as 25% hp regen increase, that's a whopping 6 hit points a tick... at level 45 with 100 health. I like 50 better! I actually like 100% the most, but no one wants to see the math on that.
I have a good feeling that these propositions will breathe some at least temporary life into the "whats going on with greatermud?" stigma. Get some more testers and what not. I'm so down.
Quote from: Torque on Sep 04, 2012, 02:51 PM
As far as 25% hp regen increase, that's a whopping 6 hit points a tick... at level 45 with 100 health. I like 50 better! I actually like 100% the most, but no one wants to see the math on that.
If we are increasing HP regen from resting, I think we also have to increase mana regen while meditating. What do you think about the consequences of doing that?
I want to be really careful in increasing HP regen, as it gives a greater bonus to high HP races, and they already have enough plus sides. Would we be better off increasing the base HP regen rather than the total HP regen? That way all races and classes have an improvement in HP regen more or less equally. If anyone knows the HP (and mana) regen formula it would be nice to have it here so that we could more closely examine what it is based on and what making this change would do?
I don't know what the difference is. Base HP regen vs total HP regen? The outcome is the same isn't it? As in, Total HP Regen includes base regen + whatever else. Help me understand what yo umean
What about a quicker HP regen tick? I'm drunk so these numbers are arbitrary. Instead of 30 seconds every tick, it's 20 seconds. Same numbers you get for resting, it just happens faster, and only for resting.
As far as mana, I think if you increase mgen you'll get more tanky casters -- like hogs, and that doesn't make sense. However, it would if spellcasting had an effect on damage, or spells were more difficult to cast than they are... I don't think we would need to adjust mgen with hp regen.
I've heard the idea before that blesses just reduce your max mana and are more or less a 'toggle'. I'm so down for that approach too. A not so transitive property in my mind is that if you want to increase mana regen for better scripting and what not, you could reduce Mana Points. Mana should be more precious I think. Digressing!
Side note: reducing crits multiplier from x4 to x3 would make spellcasters stronger... and in turn make witchunters less useless. +1 for crits reduction!
Loving the conversation. It's motivating me to try and set aside more time for gmud development time. ;)
Quote from: Torque on Sep 04, 2012, 10:12 PM
What about a quicker HP regen tick? I'm drunk so these numbers are arbitrary. Instead of 30 seconds every tick, it's 20 seconds. Same numbers you get for resting, it just happens faster, and only for resting.
I like faster regen ticks. I did something on Apathy Drive to speed up ticks without necessarily modifying rates. I factor the regen rate down, so for a monster like guards in silvermere that regen 10 hp every 30 seconds normally, I have them regen 1 hp every 3 seconds. A monster that heals 45 hp every 30 seconds will regen 3 hp every 2 seconds, etc.
Quote from: Shaitan on Sep 05, 2012, 03:11 PM
I like faster regen ticks. I did something on Apathy Drive to speed up ticks without necessarily modifying rates. I factor the regen rate down, so for a monster like guards in silvermere that regen 10 hp every 30 seconds normally, I have them regen 1 hp every 3 seconds. A monster that heals 45 hp every 30 seconds will regen 3 hp every 2 seconds, etc.
interesting....i kinda like it as long as a few things happened...how does that affect the hp regen of bosses/mobs that regen full hps in 30 seconds regardless of where their percentage of hps are at the time??
Quote from: Crabster on Sep 05, 2012, 04:49 PM
interesting....i kinda like it as long as a few things happened...how does that affect the hp regen of bosses/mobs that regen full hps in 30 seconds regardless of where their percentage of hps are at the time??
Probably not favorably for the player. ;) Can you give me an example of a monster with that behavior?
Quote from: Torque on Sep 04, 2012, 10:12 PM
I don't know what the difference is. Base HP regen vs total HP regen? The outcome is the same isn't it? As in, Total HP Regen includes base regen + whatever else. Help me understand what yo umean
What about a quicker HP regen tick?
If we increase only the base (say for instance just added 1 HP/tic per 3 levels when resting to everyone) then everyone gets the exact same bonus regardless of health stats. If we increase the total HP regen by a percentage then the high health races receive a higher bonus. They are already more powerful when scripting, we don't need to increase that disparity.
Increasing the rate of HP tics has the same problem, as well as changing the game fairly drastically. My advice is that this is a high workload for something that could be fixed in a more elegant fashion.
Quote from: Torque on Sep 04, 2012, 10:12 PM
As far as mana, I think if you increase mgen you'll get more tanky casters -- like hogs, and that doesn't make sense. However, it would if spellcasting had an effect on damage, or spells were more difficult to cast than they are... I don't think we would need to adjust mgen with hp regen.
While increased HP does benefit casters as well, I think you underestimate just how much it will improve scripting for combat classes. That being said, with the changes I suggested casters are more powerful by comparison, so maybe this will balance out. Let's leave it with no mana regen boost, and see if that works out.
Quote from: Vitoc on Sep 05, 2012, 08:49 AM
Loving the conversation. It's motivating me to try and set aside more time for gmud development time. ;)
Music to our ears Vitoc. Are you willing to weigh in on what you think of the proposed ideas and how you think they will effect the game?
So you want HP regen to be a CP modifiable stat? Otherwise your posting in the wrong thread. Stick to the topic.
Respect my authority!
Quote from: Shaitan on Sep 05, 2012, 05:21 PM
Probably not favorably for the player. ;) Can you give me an example of a monster with that behavior?
unholy idol??
Quote from: Crabster on Sep 05, 2012, 08:56 PM
unholy idol??
Looks like unholy idol has 900 hp, and regens 900 hp every 30 seconds. On my mud it'd regen 30 hp every second instead.
I absolutely hate the idea of making pvp last longer. What do most people do in PVP they hang and with Gardners current system of letting people just keeping items on their person they cant use and its not hoarding if they script all anyone has to do is hang and they can hoard lims all day long. While I don't mind the idea of boss fights lasting longer I totally disagree with the pvp element.
Quote from: y2duhh on Sep 05, 2012, 10:38 PM
I absolutely hate the idea of making pvp last longer. What do most people do in PVP they hang and with Gardners current system of letting people just keeping items on their person they cant use and its not hoarding if they script all anyone has to do is hang and they can hoard lims all day long. While I don't mind the idea of boss fights lasting longer I totally disagree with the pvp element.
So you are against longer, more skill based pvp because it makes it harder to kill people........ I think you need to go now.
There would be alot more pvp if pvp was more than just.... Engage - Win/Lose 50/50.
If hanging in pvp is the issue, that problem can be addressed separately.
Quote from: Vile on Sep 05, 2012, 11:36 PM
Engage - Win/Lose 50/50.
This is exactly what I want to see go away. Now in a 6v1 situation yeah it probably should go that way but in a 1v1 it should never go that way unless the winner is the full pvp limit higher in lvls than the victim and even then it should be iffy sometimes.
Quote from: Vile on Sep 05, 2012, 11:36 PM
I think you need to go now.
Aside from this unwarranted disparaging remark, I gotta agree with Vile. Hoarding/hang pens should be addressed in seperate issues.
Point: I may not agree with all of these changes, but we are in a test phase. Let's test some stuff out! We can ALWAYS revert to stock.
There is no such thing as longer PvP just more time to hang and that's the why it has always been.
Hanging was being addressed via the 2 item drop & hp loss settings. Everybody loved it so long as it was happening to someone else but never when it was their items being dropped. I think it should be expanded to the point where if you hang in pvp then for every 24 hours you are offline you lose more items and hps based on the current hang penalty setting.
Most often heard excuse last push: "I was trying to arrange a rescue party" If you can't arrange a rescue party in 20 days, 1: You need better friends, 2: PvP probably isn't the right realm for you to play in anyhow.
As far as people holding items they can't use, go kill/rob them and relieve them of said items. Problem solved. It's unlikely that I will set any sort of policy against hoarding items in pvp as that goes against the whole idea behind a pvp realm. Denying your enemy the use of an item is part of the fun.
If the goal is to prevent hanging from being a get out of unfavorable situation free card then why not just take it out of the equation entirely?
Rather than hp or item loss on hang, leave the character in the room for n seconds after hangup. Maybe double whatever it takes to 'quit' normally. If people want to be assured nothing bad will happen to them after they disconnect they can get somewhere safe and quit in the usual fashion.
you turned off xp tracking so all anyone has to do is hide out with gear and you dont strip them. we found one of youngs dupe hoarding all sorts of lims in the middle of grey tunnels but we were too low to hi him and then he hung and moved. PvP is currently dead because most the titems are out and the ones who have it are hoarding them and hiding from any real pvp. you want people to go find them so they can hang and go hide somewhere else for weeks until u find them again, its a huge waste of time and part of the reason that no one is doing very much in pvp but sitting around waiting for another reset.
Quote from: Shaitan on Sep 06, 2012, 12:15 PM
If the goal is to prevent hanging from being a get out of unfavorable situation free card then why not just take it out of the equation entirely?
Rather than hp or item loss on hang, leave the character in the room for n seconds after hangup. Maybe double whatever it takes to 'quit' normally. If people want to be assured nothing bad will happen to them after they disconnect they can get somewhere safe and quit in the usual fashion.
I've always been pro this idea. It removes hanging up to escape from trouble in pve and pvp.
Sure people who legitimately lose connection may die a few times... small price to pay.
Quote from: y2duhh on Sep 06, 2012, 03:16 PM
you turned off xp tracking so all anyone has to do is hide out with gear and you dont strip them. we found one of youngs dupe hoarding all sorts of lims in the middle of grey tunnels but we were too low to hi him and then he hung and moved. PvP is currently dead because most the titems are out and the ones who have it are hoarding them and hiding from any real pvp. you want people to go find them so they can hang and go hide somewhere else for weeks until u find them again, its a huge waste of time and part of the reason that no one is doing very much in pvp but sitting around waiting for another reset.
9/6/2012 2:35 AM Knowone gossips: Magic ,KILLED Khan...pwned!!!
PVP ain't dead.
Come up with other solutions. More lims. Different lims. Better exp. No saferooms. Not, "you aren't doing yor job mr. gradner!!!" Screw you, YOU aren't doing your job. Go kill someone for some lims!
Quote from: y2duhh on Sep 06, 2012, 03:16 PM
you turned off xp tracking so all anyone has to do is hide out with gear and you dont strip them. we found one of youngs dupe hoarding all sorts of lims in the middle of grey tunnels but we were too low to hi him and then he hung and moved. PvP is currently dead because most the titems are out and the ones who have it are hoarding them and hiding from any real pvp. you want people to go find them so they can hang and go hide somewhere else for weeks until u find them again, its a huge waste of time and part of the reason that no one is doing very much in pvp but sitting around waiting for another reset.
Don't want to turn this into a mud slinging match, but your crew has sat in safe rooms while we are out boss killing constantly. As a result, we now have most of the lims, you have none... and you're complaining about it.
Quote from: Vile on Sep 06, 2012, 05:33 PM
Don't want to turn this into a mud slinging match, but your crew has sat in safe rooms while we are out boss killing constantly. As a result, we now have most of the lims, you have none... and you're complaining about it.
We have plenty of lims, to say we have none is you trying to turn this into a slinging match. My problem is not with the lims you use its with the lims you don't use. I have always been a big advocate about the lims not in use being thrown back into the game no matter where they are or whatever reason they aren't being used. You guys would probably get the lims again and again and again and I would be fine with that but they should be rotated back into the game constantly after not being used for x amount of time.
Quote from: y2duhh on Sep 06, 2012, 09:33 PM
My problem is not with the lims you use its with the lims you don't use. I have always been a big advocate about the lims not in use being thrown back into the game no matter where they are or whatever reason they aren't being used. You guys would probably get the lims again and again and again and I would be fine with that but they should be rotated back into the game constantly after not being used for x amount of time.
This sounds like an excellent idea. Do you have some suggestions on how to fix it that could be implemented in the game, preferrably something that doesn't require sysop oversight? And for that matter, Gardner: being both an op and a programmer, who has been intimately involved in the tracking of lims for the various pushes, do you have any ideas how that could be implemented?
This sounds like the kind of project that would require a fair bit of time and effort and is not specifically related to balance, but is definitely worth pursuing as it does directly relate to realm stagnation.
My suggestion:
Implement a counter for each limited item that records how much exp was earned while the item was in a characters inventory (not necessarily equipped). You could calculate based on time in inventory, min level and exp earned what a reasonable threshold is to consider an item 'in use' and then just reset the item if it has not gained enough exp in 3,5,7,14 day increments.
This would require a bunch of extra overhead for the games server to deal with, you could make the comparison to the threshold only happen at cleanup to make that a little nicer, though it would increase the cleanup period.
Quote from: y2duhh on Sep 06, 2012, 09:33 PM
We have plenty of lims, to say we have none is you trying to turn this into a slinging match. My problem is not with the lims you use its with the lims you don't use. I have always been a big advocate about the lims not in use being thrown back into the game no matter where they are or whatever reason they aren't being used. You guys would probably get the lims again and again and again and I would be fine with that but they should be rotated back into the game constantly after not being used for x amount of time.
Lims are being constantly swept and stripped by Gardner. I don't know what your problem is.
The only time lims not being reset they are on active players or in ganghouses (they still get swept from gh from time to time too) and you are free to kill and rob to get these.
Are you advocating reseting lims from inventories if they are not equipped?
Quote from: Vile on Sep 07, 2012, 01:18 AM
Are you advocating reseting lims from inventories if they are not equipped?
Absolutely within reason
Quote from: Zetetic on Sep 07, 2012, 01:02 AM
My suggestion:
Implement a counter for each limited item that records how much exp was earned while the item was in a characters inventory (not necessarily equipped). You could calculate based on time in inventory, min level and exp earned what a reasonable threshold is to consider an item 'in use' and then just reset the item if it has not gained enough exp in 3,5,7,14 day increments.
This would require a bunch of extra overhead for the games server to deal with, you could make the comparison to the threshold only happen at cleanup to make that a little nicer, though it would increase the cleanup period.
I had a similiar idea but it is a little more complex, and lets take 4 items for example. Witchwood spear, Nexus Spear, Dragonclaw staff, and Stormmetal Corselet.
Both the witchwood spear and the Nexus spear would have to do so much damage over a specific period of time (30 days, 7 days) and if they don't they are recycled. Of course the damage would be different as a level 10-25 isnt going to do the same damage as a level 45+ using spear. Dragonclaw staff would have to regen so much mana over a period of time and the Stormmetal Corselet would have to take so much damage over that same period of time. its a little more complex but that aren't normally eq'd all the time like Sparkling Pendants the ability to be used for what they are designed for and not just kept in someones inventory to keep out of the game (which happens now).
hard to argue with numbers there, pal. Anyway, lets get back to some interesting stuff!
So the average of all ideas and affirmations is (I dont know, I'm asking):
-That we want to test things out using little to no overhaul of code. Zetetic was coming up with some good stuff.
-We would like a reset with these changes
-Changes include:
-a reduction of crit modifier
-an across the board increase in hit points
-an accordingly raised hang pen
-some type of hp regen increase
-magic damage increase
-possibly a cps adjustment? i think that one requires a lot of programming
Help me out here, what else? Admins, which of these require too much work?
Keep this thread on topic. All posts related to current board policy have been moved to a new thread and put in the Gardner Sucks section.
Quote from: Torque on Sep 07, 2012, 12:39 PM
-Changes include:
-a reduction of crit modifier
-an across the board increase in hit points
-an accordingly raised hang pen
-some type of hp regen increase
-magic damage increase
-possibly a cps adjustment? i think that one requires a lot of programming
Help me out here, what else? Admins, which of these require too much work?
Im with you on the crit modifier, hang pens, magic damage increase, but why do we need increased hps/hp regen?
Several reasons: 1. read through the topic again, those reasons. 2. to supplement characters that do not cast healing spells. 3. to test some shit out. 4. to have extra reasons to actually get a reset. once we get the interest of vitoc, im sure we can manhandle some bad apples (changes) and or vote them out
Quote from: Torque on Sep 07, 2012, 12:39 PM
hard to argue with numbers there, pal. Anyway, lets get back to some interesting stuff!
So the average of all ideas and affirmations is (I dont know, I'm asking):
-That we want to test things out using little to no overhaul of code. Zetetic was coming up with some good stuff.
-We would like a reset with these changes
-Changes include:
-a reduction of crit modifier
-an across the board increase in hit points
-an accordingly raised hang pen
-some type of hp regen increase
-magic damage increase
-possibly a cps adjustment? i think that one requires a lot of programming
Help me out here, what else? Admins, which of these require too much work?
The cp adjustment and magic damage increase would be biggish deals namely because it's a pretty radical departure from what we already have. We'd have to take out caps, extend lvl gain caps, things like that. Keeping in mind that all MR caps out at a certain point, we'd have to have something similar in place on spells. Wouldn't want a mage casting magic missile for 1500 damage.
Quote from: Gardner Denver on Sep 07, 2012, 06:28 PM
The cp adjustment and magic damage increase would be biggish deals namely because it's a pretty radical departure from what we already have. We'd have to take out caps, extend lvl gain caps, things like that. Keeping in mind that all MR caps out at a certain point, we'd have to have something similar in place on spells. Wouldn't want a mage casting magic missile for 1500 damage.
I've got a database modification for spells done already that increases the damage done by player spells while at the same time not changing any of the damage dealt by monsters. Its a modification of the spell mod someone else made, with all the spells cast by monsters duplicated and reassigned prior to patching.
Quote from: Stalkerr on Sep 07, 2012, 06:48 PM
I've got a database modification for spells done already that increases the damage done by player spells while at the same time not changing any of the damage dealt by monsters. Its a modification of the spell mod someone else made, with all the spells cast by monsters duplicated and reassigned prior to patching.
I've heard of that mod. I don't think that's what they are asking for. I think they are looking for something more along the lines of damage based on your SC. For example if it requires say 100 SC to cast a spell, and you have 300 SC, you should do heavier damage with that spell than someone with 200 SC.
Example:
Spell: Magma Blast. Minimum SC: 150 Minimum Dmg: 15 Maximum Dmg: 30
At 150 SC you would do mostly 15 point casts but never a 30 point cast. The difference between min & max dmg is 2x, so at 300 SC you would do mostly 30 casts. As you went above 300 SC you would get some sort of + Max Dmg bonus on the spell.
If we do make these adjustments is it going to make the game in its current format harder or easier? What I mean by that is right now people are 5th questing by the 1st or 2nd month of an active realm and there is nothing left after that, is this going to make the game go by faster? imo if we do something like this we should also look into balancing things out like the 5th quest is done at level 100+ and the 4th at 80+ and the monsters are changed to reflect that.
level 100? that's ridiculous. especially for a quest a level 50 can do
if there is no content after level 50 (paraphrased) then the solution is more content, not changing the way the game works
a good point about yoru post is that it brings up unanticipated consequences, so we all keep an eye out for those
these changes we are testing for balancing.. changing content to balance engine is a way to do it, but that sounds way more tedious and counterintuitive
Quote from: Torque on Sep 07, 2012, 08:25 PM
level 100? that's ridiculous. especially for a quest a level 50 can do
if there is no content after level 50 (paraphrased) then the solution is more content, not changing the way the game works
a good point about yoru post is that it brings up unanticipated consequences, so we all keep an eye out for those
these changes we are testing for balancing.. changing content to balance engine is a way to do it, but that sounds way more tedious and counterintuitive
You are semi right, level 100? sounds like alot, but with resting faster its going to increase xph which is going to increase levels which in turns is going to make level 50 so easily obtainable that maybe 3 weeks? 2 weeks in? think about it 4 months into pvp and the 5th quest has already been done, if we made it level 100 what would it take if people were earning xp twice as fast? 6 months? doesn't sound all that bad now does it?
ahh, im following you better now. I think the key here is the reduction of the crit multiplier. instead of a nexus spear doing a base max 300, it will now do 225. a starsteel shortsword instead of 92 will be 69. i think that would slow the scripting down quite a bit, so the timeframe (without doing math) may not be as grossly easy as you suggest
Quote from: Gardner Denver on Sep 07, 2012, 07:20 PM
I've heard of that mod. I don't think that's what they are asking for. I think they are looking for something more along the lines of damage based on your SC. For example if it requires say 100 SC to cast a spell, and you have 300 SC, you should do heavier damage with that spell than someone with 200 SC.
Example:
Spell: Magma Blast. Minimum SC: 150 Minimum Dmg: 15 Maximum Dmg: 30
At 150 SC you would do mostly 15 point casts but never a 30 point cast. The difference between min & max dmg is 2x, so at 300 SC you would do mostly 30 casts. As you went above 300 SC you would get some sort of + Max Dmg bonus on the spell.
Earlier I had suggest
Quote from: Stalkerr on Aug 31, 2012, 07:01 PM
I believe that spellcasters need to do more damage, and that they should convert spellcasting that exceeds 100% casting rate to an MR reduction on their target. Something along the lines of SC over 100% coverted to negative MR at 4:1 ratio. Meaning that low willpower characters would be prone to a possibility of massive damage from incoming spells.
In the actual formula i wrote for this it scales pretty hard once the targets MR is (effectively) below 50, and the antimagic abilitiy makes you immune to this effect. I would still want to increasse the base damage on spells but this would definately reward players for higher SC.
We could make level 65+ pretty interesting in the pvp realm by disabling the easy trainer/fixing w/e is wrong with the hard trainer.
Here's an idea. What about doing some stat tweaks on the each race to make them "greater" instead of just a +40 max stat increase straight across the board.
Example for a halfling. Instead of 20-100 Str why not have something like 30-80? So it fits the idea of a "halfling" better and you don't have to dump so much in Strength right off the bat so as not to suffer from the encumbrance issue with combat swings/dodge/whatever. Try to make all the races "greater" yet try to balance them out as well. The current system seems to favor certain races over others.
Just something to ponder..
Quote from: signalSalute on Sep 08, 2012, 10:45 PM
Here's an idea. What about doing some stat tweaks on the each race to make them "greater" instead of just a +40 max stat increase straight across the board.
The reason we did the +40 on all stats was simple. The non pvp realm had been running almost a year and we had lots of players who had maxed out and were starting to sort of lose interest. This gave them something to do with all those banked cps and created some renewed interest in the game.
Quote from: Gardner Denver on Sep 09, 2012, 02:05 AM
The reason we did the +40 on all stats was simple. The non pvp realm had been running almost a year and we had lots of players who had maxed out and were starting to sort of lose interest. This gave them something to do with all those banked cps and created some renewed interest in the game.
Your words make cows sad.
We're working towards getting a (mostly) faithful remake of MajorMUD completed. We tried new content and most kind of rejected it. It's obvious we all love the MajorMUD content most of us grew up playing.
Content is not yet our focus, but it will be addressed. As Gardner mentioned, adding the +40 to max-stats was sort of an easy win. Let us finish the engine and then we'll make an honest attempt to work on new content and address game balance.
im linking this post when someone starts whining about anything
Quote from: Vitoc on Sep 09, 2012, 09:38 AM
We're working towards getting a (mostly) faithful remake of MajorMUD completed. We tried new content and most kind of rejected it. It's obvious we all love the MajorMUD content most of us grew up playing.
Content is not yet our focus, but it will be addressed. As Gardner mentioned, adding the +40 to max-stats was sort of an easy win. Let us finish the engine and then we'll make an honest attempt to work on new content and address game balance.
Quote from: signalSalute on Sep 08, 2012, 10:45 PM
Here's an idea. What about doing some stat tweaks on the each race to make them "greater" instead of just a +40 max stat increase straight across the board.
The punishing costs of raising stats by that extra +40 seems like enough to me. How many halflings do you see in a realm, total, already? We should be trying to encourage more diversity in race selection. At least with the +40 if you really want to build a halfling combat class you can, as you now get access to most (but still not all) of the heavier weapons.
Quote from: y2duhh on Sep 07, 2012, 07:28 PM
If we do make these adjustments is it going to make the game in its current format harder or easier? What I mean by that is right now people are 5th questing by the 1st or 2nd month of an active realm and there is nothing left after that, is this going to make the game go by faster?
From my napkin calculations, the changes we're suggesting will make scripting slower, and so levelling up should be slower. A bunch of the quests will become harder to complete (due to the lower damage output of all characters except for casters), though they will also be more forgiving (you shouldn't see casters and low HP races getting killed so easily, which means that everyone actually gets a better opportunity to complete quests at a similar level). I don't expect people to be killing Thrag and the Ancient ruins at such low levels.
I completely agree with you that there needs to be real stuff to do after level 50 (or perhaps level 65 when the last items are available), but the solution as Torque stated is more content. I am actually hoping that with the modification to HPs, a bunch of areas that have been previously unused for scripting might actually become viable, as currently they are just too capable of ridiculous burst damage. Anyone up for scripting darken beasts? I know that I want to give it a go.
I also just wanted to suggest another simple change to make to come under our combined set of simple changes; Make mystics combat-2 and leave them at 250% exp table. While the reduction in crit multiplier will hurt their damage output, they will still out-damage all the other combat classes, and they have magic-5 straight off the bat so they are way too powerful at those lower levels. At combat-2 they will be stuck using punch and kick for longer and this should scale them well with the other changes we've proposed.
What does having mag-5 have to do with them being powerful? I mean of course they are mag-5 they dont get any equipment. Everyone else gets mag-2 at lvl 10. AND isnt AR all the level 20 quests? How high of a level does it seem fair for people to be in there? I have not seen a single level 20 character clean house in AR. Ever. I hate to be a hater, but geeze. But ya, mystics are badass. Take kai master. Pretty badass right? Thats what I expect when I fight a mystic. Just sayin.
Quote from: mr sinister on Sep 26, 2012, 05:04 PM
What does having mag-5 have to do with them being powerful? I mean of course they are mag-5 they dont get any equipment. Everyone else gets mag-2 at lvl 10. AND isnt AR all the level 20 quests? How high of a level does it seem fair for people to be in there? I have not seen a single level 20 character clean house in AR. Ever. I hate to be a hater, but geeze. But ya, mystics are badass. Take kai master. Pretty badass right? Thats what I expect when I fight a mystic. Just sayin.
it is a nice advantage having mag 5...also everyone else does NOT get mag 2 at level 10...the opportunity is there but its not a given...outside of that u have lev 12 and 15 i think for a mag 2 depending on ur class....lev 18 and 20 next i believe....a lev 20 mystic can solo a few bosses in ar...but also can a few other classes...but not necessarily with ease for either
How about changing the system where they have both a cookie cutter self appointed stat system based off class/race adjustments. and a cp system where every level you recieve 5 cp to adjust stats the way you want ( 1cp = 1 stat for the first ten points on one stat, then 2 cp = 1 stat, etc...) that way by lvl 60 every char will have had 300 cp to play around with whatever stat they wanted to raise to make their char unique. in essence a char could make 1 stat by level 60 +80 points and 2 stats +10 over their appointed stats. or other combinations to make the char more believable to what he was looking for.that way the race/class adjusment will help to allieviate some of the weird combinations from ruling the game over the normal combos. but also help people make the char how they want it to be built.