Mod-10 Beyond the 6th Quest.

[DeathCow]

List looks pretty accurate to me. I'd be tempted to rank Witchies higher.

I've spent alot of time looking at witchunters..this is my view

A comprehensive look at witchunters.

Levels 1-10 Armour
WH Level 1:57.2/9.3;Level 10:67.2/12.6
PA Level 1:73.5/17.4:Level 10:75/17.3
WA Level 1:72/17.9;Level 10:73/17.8

Keep in mind that the above Armour statistics are based on the best possible items for AC/DR combo at that level. 

At level 1 a gap of almost 16 ac can be seen.  Although this may seem significant the difference in Armour class is negligible do to the monsters a level 1 is capable of fighting.  The weapon choices at level 1 are similar for WHs, PAs and WAs so it seems that at this very low level the witchunter is capable of maintaining a competitive edge.  A warrior require a lower chart than a witchunter but the witchunters combat ability should nearly be able to over come the difference.  Compared to a paladin the witchunter will most likely advance quicker at this stage.

At level 10 the witchunter has made the largest advancement in Armour class.  However the witchunter's access to the Armour needed to attain this Armour class is very limited.  Black chitin is needed in large amounts as well as great deals of cash to create the needed items.  Because of the short time period where Black Chitin Armour is considerable and the time it takes to create the Armour, Black chitin is rarely used.  The best course of action here would be to make each piece of black chitin much easier to create.  One piece of chitin per piece of Armour and 1 piece of spider silk.  The cost of each should be no greater than the cost of level 10 non-magical plate gear.  Otherwise witchunters will quickly find them selves lagging behind other tank type classes as early as level 10.

Levels 1-10 Weapons

WH Level 1: Katana 7-17:1350;Long Spear 5-13:1400;maul 8-25:2600
WH Level 10: Katana 7-17:1350;mithril cutlass 8-18:1550;bone-handled headcutter 7-30:2200
PA Level 1: Katana 7-17:1350;maul 8-25:2600;silvery mace 7-14:1350
PA Level 10: Katana 7-17:1350;Shimmering Greatsword 9-28:1800;silvery mace 7-14:1350
WA Level 1: Katana 7-17:1350;maul 8-25:2600;silvery mace 7-14:1350
WA Level 10: Katana 7-17:1350;silvery mace 7-14:1350;Golden Battleaxe 8-21:1600

Keep in mind that the above weapons are only a small list of weapons.   They are however the best weapons for each class at the respective levels.

From levels 1-10 WHs, PAs, and WAs share quite a bit of weapons.  The most notable difference occurs at level 10 with the quest weapons.  The mithril cutlass slightly under performs the Golden battleaxe.  However the bone-handled headcutter can be used to bash for a few more levels with more than reasonable results.  Compared with a warrior the witchunters attacks will be more accurate and he should have little trouble quickly dealing with level appropriate monsters.  However at level 10 the witchunters accuracy will not be as good as a paladins due to the bless spell on the Shimmering Greatsword.  An easy way round this downfall would be to introduce a low level neck item for a witchunter that increases his accuracy.  This item could be given away with black chitin Armour to any witchunter that creates the item.  A further simplification would be to increase the accuracy on some of the weapons availed at level 10.  Although I believe the former to be the best method to deal with it.

Levels 1-10 Armour, Weapons, Abilities

Witchunters begin to display their innate weakness as early as level 1.  This weakness isn't apparent on most boards however until characters near level 10 and have the money and resources to begin to increase their Armour class.  Weapon wise witchunters do not begin to really feel the pinch until level 10.  At level 10 the slight improvement combat-5 has compared to combat-4 is nearly negligable because many tanks are still using bash to increase their damage per round.  The main advantage witchunters have, the ability to hit magical monsters with any weapon, is not helpful at all during this early stage. Their disadvantage, resisting blesses and healing, is already clearly pronounced.  This could be dealt with by making a few of the lower level bosses magic-1.  The ones that come to mind are. Chest, Gravedigger, Mad Wizard, and Giant Spider.

Levels 11-20 Armour

WH Level 11: 63.2/12.6;Level 20:67/12.9
PA Level 11: 79/17.3;Level 20:78.5/22
WA Level 11: 73.5/17.8;Level 20:77/22.5

Keep in mind that the above Armour statistics are based on the best possible items for AC/DR combo at that level. 

From levels 11-20 there is an almost painful lack of items for witchunters.  It doesn't seem too horrid until you realize that black chitin Armour is needed all the way through 20.  The time it takes to create this Armour is simply huge.  Anyone that spends the time to collect all of the chitin for the Armour set will have taken a huge drop in exp to do so. By the time they have all the pieces of chitin they will be several levels behind a warrior or a paladin that does not have to work to get their Armour.  A small quest is reasonable but a pain in the ass item collection quest at this stage of the game holds the witchunter back.  By level 20 the 10 ac difference can become very noticeable.  Paladin will be able to out exp a witchunter by using their healing abilities and Armour class.  Even a warrior will be out doing a witchunter as the warrior will undoubtedly be using his lower exp chart to his advantage and be quickly moving on to higher levels.

Levels 11-20 Weapons
WH Level 11: Katana 7-17:1350;mithril cutlass 8-18:1550;bone-handled headcutter 7-30:2200
WH Level 20: Magebane Sword 9-22:1600;Heavy Spear 10-40:3700;bone-handled headcutter 7-30:2200
WA Level 11: Katana 7-17:1350;silvery mace 7-14:1350;Golden Battleaxe 8-21:1600
WA Level 20: Huge Darkwood Club 10-34:3000;runic warhammer 10-18:1675;blades of balance 8-32:2100
PA Level 11: Katana 7-17:1350;Shimmering Greatsword 9-28:1800;silvery mace 7-14:1350
PA Level 20: Huge Darkwood Club 10-34:3000;runic warhammer 10-18:1675;blades of balance 8-32:2100

Early in this level range witchunters take a couple of large hits.  Warriors and Paladins begin to have a wide range of magic-2 weapons availed to them.  Some weapons like the emerald hilted rapier begin to give the warriors and paladins large crit bonuses allowing them to effectively move away from bashing.  At level 15 however, the witchunter gain access to the Magebane Sword which is a very nice low level weapon.  Witchunters are able to gain the smash ability earlier than any other class which allows them to use the very powerful Heavy spear with great effect at level 20.  Unfortunately there are no places in the game that a witchunter can use the full force of their heavy spear, this is mainly due to their poor Armour class.  On a fresh bbs gaining access to a heavy spear at level 20 is extremely difficult.  This makes using it at level 20 somewhat limited but if attained and used properly it can accelerate the witchunter exp rate tremendously.  One way to make it easier to get would be to drop the cost of teleporting to mod 7 by a considerable amount.  There could be a one time quest from the Huge Dwarven Witchunter that sends a witchunter and his party to putwaka for some kind of item or information.  The witchunter could use a note or something similar to teleport his party freely to the other side.  When the witchunter returns he could gain a small amount of experience, perhaps 200k for his troubles and as a bonus he and his party would have the ability to shop once at putawakas without the 1 runic toll.

Level 11-20 Armour, Weapons, and Abilities

Levels 11-20 are the oddity for witchunters.  Their abilities go back and forth from being better to being worse than warriors and paladins level to level, based on the equipment warriors and paladins have availible to them at the time.  Sadly the one true strength that witchunters gain in these levels is smash at level 18.  With a witchunters Armour class it will be difficult for them to survive in the orc barracks well enough to maintain a competitive exp rate.  If the witchunter does not have the black chitin Armour this is even more apparent.  An easy fix for this would be to have Aldreth teach the witchunter the ability for 25 orc heads instead of 50.  A proper justification would be that the witchunters enhanced combat skills allow them to learn new skills more easily than other, and thus take less of aldreth's time.

Level 21-30 Armour

WH Level 21: 67/12.9;Level 30: 73.5/14.3
WA Level 21: 77/22.5;Level 30: 90.5/24.8
PA Level 21: 78.5/22;Level 30: 92/24.3

Its somewhat striking that the black chitin helm remain the best head gear for witchunters at level 30.  Its even more striking that a level 1 warriors Armour class can be 72/17.9 and a level 30 witchunters only 72/14.3.  None of the level 30 witchunter items are worth noting.  I think there are a few items that could be upgraded to help witchunters at this level.  Red enameled scale mail comes to mind almost immediately.  Crimson earring could be upgraded to help witchunters overcome there extreme lack of viable earrings.  At this level witchunters just now begin to be able to use their MR as defense for scripting however many of the areas where magic is used also have spells that are non-resistible.  In order to make witchunters a better class many of these areas need to be looked over.  Spells that cannot be resisted need to be fixed.  Some of the more notable spells in this area are Darkness spells that cause you to be unable to see.  These spells greatly effect a character ability to gain exp and if they were reconsidered witchunters would have access to certain scripting areas other try to avoid.

Level 21-30 Weapons
WH Level 21: Magebane Sword 9-22:1600;Heavy Spear 10-40:3700;bone-handled headcutter 7-30:2200
WH Level 30: golden pike 15-50:3000;etched adamant warhammer 10-25:2000;giantwood club 16-40:3000
WA Level 21: Huge Darkwood Club 10-34:3000;runic warhammer 10-18:1675;blades of balance 8-32:2100
WA Level 30: golden pike 15-50:3000;holy avenger 9-25:1900;blood lance 6-30:2000
PA Level 21: Huge Darkwood Club 10-34:3000;runic warhammer 10-18:1675;blades of balance 8-32:2100
PA Level 30: golden pike 15-50:3000;holy avenger 9-25:1900;blood lance 6-30:2000

At this level range all three of the great tank classes could try to use the golden pike.  Although warriors and paladin do not use it at the same level of effectiveness, often time warriors and paladins will be able to get it before a witchunter.  It could be made less effective for warriors and paladins by making its hitmagic 2 instead of 3 to give witchunters more of a chance to acquire it.  By this stage witchunters have really begun to fall behind in crits because their gear does not provide them with any additional crit bonus.  Using the golden pike or giantwood club a witchunter can effectively side step the crit differences by smashing.  However a paladin or a warrior will be able to cause greater damage with the same weapons.  To counter act this effect witchunters need some way to gain +max damage.  Either by witchunter only quests or items isn't important, but it is necessary to over come the combat difference.  At this stage of the game witchunters should be doing damage equal to that of a warrior or a paladin. 

Level 21-30 Armour, Weapons, and Abilities

At this level range a witchunter may feel very happy with his abilities to hit monsters with any magic level.  Its his only advantage.  Poor Armour class and poor weapon choices leave the witchunter lacking in a variety of ways.  A witchunter could really stand out at these levels if a few mod-2 bosses were made magic-3.  Chimera, Crimson Mist, Ancient Willow, Quickling Lord, Frozen Hydra, Frost Giant, and Prismatic Dragon come to mind because they are not related to completing the 2nd quest. Making these monsters more difficult for combat-4's would help to make witchunters more appealing to the masses, because killing these bosses is the quickest way through this level range. Short of being power leveled that is.

Level 31-40 Armour
WH Level 31:73.5/14.3;Level 40 :84.5/20.7
WA Level 30: 90.5/24.8;Level 40 :96/24.4
PA Level 30: 92/24.3;Level 40: 97/23.7

This level range is easily the largest jump witchunters will ever see in ac.  A significant boost in DR puts witchunters at a respectable Armour class range.  Its worth noting that since the Armour class for the purposes of this document include shields but no worn items or weapon items warriors and paladins take the most ac reduction for going 2 handed.  At this level range however, the witchunter items fail to produce any significant advantages such as +crits or +max damage.  Certain in game quests could be added to create spiked versions of level 40 Armour.  As with most spiked gear they could add small amount of max damage. Demonling or some similar monster could drop the spikes at a rather high drop rate making this an easy to complete quest even though it would be quite dangerous at this level range.

Level 31-40 Weapons
WH Level 31: golden pike 15-50:3000;etched adamant warhammer 10-25:2000;giantwood club 16-40:3000
WH Level 40: golden pike 15-50:3000;etched adamant warhammer 10-25:2000;tree trunk 30-100:5000
PA Level 31: golden pike 15-50:3000;holy avenger 9-25:1900;blood lance 6-30:2000
PA Level 40: golden pike 15-50:3000;starsteel greatsword 10-55:2900;nexus chakram 10-35:2500
WA Level 31: golden pike 15-50:3000;holy avenger 9-25:1900;blood lance 6-30:2000
WA Level 40: golden pike 15-50:3000;starsteel greatsword 10-55:2900;nexus chakram 10-35:2500

Sadly, at this level range the golden pike remain the best weapon for the witchunter.  As with all limited items the golden pike is a difficult item to come by.  Unfortunately its the only weapon in this range that even begins to compete with weapons availible to warriors and paladins.  The tree trunk, while it is a fearsome item is very limited in its abilities.  Its a pathetic item against high Armour class monsters as the -30 accuracy can really hamper its abilities at this level.  It is also basically restricted to Half Ogres as its 150 strength requirement would cause additional penalties to any other race.  New weapons need to be created for this level range in order to keep witchunters competitive with other tank classes.

Level 31-40 Armour, Weapons, and Abilities

A witchunters hit-magic ability is a true asset during this time period.  Although it hardly makes up for his grossly under-powered weapon choices.  Witchunter's anti-magic aura by now completely stops all bless and healing spells while its effects on attack spells seem only marginally better than regular magic resistances.  If healing spells where resisted partially  instead of completely it may begin to make up for this difference.  Expanded item content is needed for these levels to help witchunters make up for the poor weapons and poor statistic boosts they have.

Level 41-50 Armour
WH Level 41:84.5/20.7;Level 50:86.5/21.2
WA Level 41:96.5/24.4;Level 50:108/34.9
PA Level 41:98/23.7;Level 50:110/36.2

At level 41 the true depths of a witchunters weaknesses begin to shine.  Maxed Armour class in the 80's leaves witchunters feeling the burn in regular melee combat.  While the Armour class its self isn't terrible the combination of it with witchunter disabilities is staggering.  HP rgen items are in short order, while healing spells become useless on a witchunter wearing crimson scale Armour.  This combination severely limits witchunters, as most scripting areas in the game are only maxed when you do not rest during your loop.  Crimson earrings, the only earring a witchunter would use, is nothing short of a joke.  The most amusing part of witchunter gear has got to be the sunstone wristband.  If the sunstone wristband can be non-magical, sigh.  At this stage a witchunter has +5 max damage, +10 mana, +10 acc, +6 shock dmg, +25 hps and +25 hp rgen.  A paladin on the other hand has; HPs +10, Mana +30, Crits +5, SC +5, Acc -5, Max Damage +14, HP Regen +45, Mana Regen +15, +200 Illumination, Rlit +20.  This is just a comparison of 1 gear set of each class, but it shows the general statistical disparity witchunters face at this and up coming levels.  *[This does not include any advantages from spells a paladin may have]

Level 41-50 Weapons

WH Level 41: golden pike 15-50:3000;etched adamant warhammer 10-25:2000;tree trunk 30-100:5000
WH Level 50: Draka's Blade 16-50:2550;Mithril executioner's axe 19-72:4000;Level 50 Quest Weapon*

At this stage of the game, comparison to other classes based off weapon damages is quite frankly useless.  A paladin can bash with throwing hammers for nearly 600 damage in a round. <6-12 damage +20 max damage=32 max hit. 32x4=128 128x5=640!!!> So what advantages do witchunters have?  A witchunter has 1 single advantage left.  He can hit magical monsters with any weapon.  This advantage translates into next to nothing once character hit level 50.  Draka's Blade is an extremely effective weapon. We will call it saving grace number 1.  Its low speed makes it a viable weapon until maximum level.  A witchunter without Draka's has a few other options.  Mithril executioner's axe has some potential, its in game effectiveness however is questionable at best.  Witchunters have the distinction of having the best chances of pulling a decent level 50 quest weapon.  Good, neutral and evil each have 2 fairly nice weapons and 1 terrible weapon.  A witchunter with one of the decent quest weapons or Draka's may have a comfortable post 50 life, although they will never be on the caliber of the other classes.  Although I didn't list the tree trunk above, I suppose its worth noting. Smashing with the tree trunk can yield decent experience for a witchunter for many levels.  Its speed prohibits it from being used for anything else.

Level 41-50 Armour, Weapons, and Abilities

<Quest for Power 1: So you wanna be a witchunter.  A strange power prevents you from choosing this class> At this stage of the game witchunter abilities really come into question.  Useful becomes useless.  Potential becomes paralyzing.  And Combat 5 becomes crap.  So many things combined to work against witchunters. They resist nearly all useful spells, they don't really have the option of going for dodge gear<+dodge maxes at +16, that's with a +5 dodge bow and a gold emblem>, So witchunters have few options.  Either go for maximum ac and resist every healing spell ever cast on them, or wear go for the sub-sub par Armour and take more damage and resist 50% of the healing spells cast on them. Not very good options.  The most puzzling thing to me however is that Witchunter magic resistance was semi-recently reworked, and this is what they made.  Is this what Witchunters are suppose to be like. Ugh.  Witchunters need to have a natural +to crits as well has a natural +max damage.  Something that increases slowly over time.  A small, but simple, fix for witchunter and their combat power level.  If a witchunters combat level was equal to a paladins then Witchunters wouldn't need a 10 page post about them.  Further more red chitin gear needs to have a slightly larger ac bonus than crimson scale.  A witchunter could then mix and match the two and come up with a comfortable ac and magic resistance level.

Levels 51-75 Armour
With the exception of the death shroud and faded shawl no one's Armour changes after level 50.  Certain Armour spell continue to increase in power but in general each class stops growing ac wise after level 50.  Post level 50 the only defense that continues to grow is dodge, witchunters do not get to take advantage of this however.  The magic resistance advantages of crimson gear grow dimmer with each level as a witchunter's innate magic resistance grows. Its difficult to complain about lack of content of high level witchunters as all classes are in the same pool.  In the higher levels witchunters need to be able to give up their magic resistance gear for other advantages.  HP rgen, Armour class, crits and max damage all come to mind.

Level 51-75 Weapons
Only a few weapons exist with level restriction above level 50. Sword of Ozrinom, nightblack scythe, Feyr, Dusk, rod of might, and Soulblighter. Of these items Sword of Ozrinom, nightblack scythe, Dusk, and Soulblighter bring certain classes to their maximum scripting power.  Nightblack scythe easily trumps even the tree trunk in per swing damage when held by players with +max damage equipment.  Draka's blade cannot compete with these items.  The answer to fix these problems cannot be addressed by simply adding a lim-1 level 60 witchunter weapon.  All stages of witchunter life need to be looked at. 

Level 51-75 Weapons, Armour, Abilities.
Without repeating the evidence that I've stated several times already, it is clear that a witchunters disadvantages out weight its advantages.

The Basics

1-10: Witchunters are fine.  Their advancement is quick and easy.  Their ac and combat make them very effective.

11-20: Black chitin Armour is not fun. It costs 87 platinum to create, which is alot more than a tank needs.  It takes 17 pieces of chitin, which takes several hours to collect.  It takes 18 pieces of spider silk, 4% drop on bola spiders. <This takes a very long time to get. Witchunter combat remains effective while its magic resistance does not hamper it.

21-30: Armour class begins to seem rather poor at this range.  A witchunter's combat is much less effective than a tank.  Smash is the key at this level range and witchunter's do not have the powerful weapon choices other have.  The heavy spear is the best weapon, however, it is costly and difficult to get.

31-40: The tree trunk is the single most powerful weapon for witchunters in this level range.  Potent and effective to a very limited point.  A witchunters low ac will slow them down considerably anywhere that the tree trunk's damage would help.

41-50: The increase in Armour class provided by crimson scale is welcome and needed.  The huge increase in magic resistance completely stops any attempt to heal a witchunter.  The tree trunk remains a witchunters best weapon until level 50. 

51+: Middle level Armour class can be made slightly effective by using a shield with Draka's.  Without Draka's the only other options are 2 handed weapons. Witchunter don't perform as well as a paladin or a warrior in: Armour Class, max damage, crits, script ability, usefulness on boss runs, weapon choices. 

What do the classes at the top (besides Priest) have in common? 2-handed weapons/high damage. An easy solution would be to give the classes down the bottom, spells/items to bring their damage up in line with the top.

Oddly priests are up there for completely different reason than the other classes.  In my mind they are the best class in the game(balance wise)  They perform their roles perfectly.  If I was going to bust out the nerf stick, I'd probably leave them alone while I raped the others.

A better solution, you shouldn't be able to have the highest ac and deal the highest damage at the same time.  Take Palys as an example.

Paladins are a BIG problem with the game.  But the issue has more to do with 2 handed weapons being the end all power house that they are.  There isnt an EASY solution, but maybe its not that difficult.  Imagine if you will, All plate armour is down graded slightly and in shields are upgraded to compensate.  Meaning you'd have to choose between high damage or high defence.  Two handed weapons could been universally slowed down, and additional swings could be added, on a sliding scale, after surpassing max QND. 

The draw backs are nerfing items, no one likes it when an item is nerfed.  That and tweaking items to the correct speeds might be a give and take trial.  Which will mean some items will have a bit of a rollercoaster ride in power levels while power levels are adjusted.  Some items might become over powered in this kind of system, which means that they'd need to be nerfed..more nerfing.

The positives speak for themselves though.  You can easily see that the 1handed classes will a significant leveling of the damage playing field.  Some items that are rarely used, and often thought of as bad, might suddenly become good.  Like 5th quest weapons and various other items like the dragonfang ninjato. 

Now I know that this requires coding changes, but nothing stops us from taking the first steps ahead of time.

- Have a set of plate for AC but it heavily reduces damage/speed. This is a tank Paly.
- A set of plate for damage but gives little AC. This is a damage Paly.
- A set of plate for mana regen and + healing/spell damage. This is a healing Paly. Yes Paly's should be good healers if they want to be.

Its a great idea in theory, but you end up having to throw out alot of items, and maybe even class restrict some.

Get rid of exp% tables. This is just a cop out to say we can't be bothered balancing the classes.

I'm not bothered at all by exp tables.  They did at one point of time make sense, I swear!  They can be part of the balancing equation just not the end all excuse for why certain classes, thieves! get overlooked for they past 15 years.

To be the highest damage dealer, a class must have major short comings in other areas.

Paly (dps gear) - Good damage, Poor defense, poor healing.
Paly (tank gear) - Poor damage, Good defense, poor healing.
Paly (spell gear) - Poor/Good spell damage, Poor/Good defense (w/spells), Good healing
Warrior (tank)- Poor/Good damage, Best defense
Warrior (dps) - Good damage, Poor/Good defense
Thief / Rogue (dps) - Best damage, Shockingly bad defense

Thief class needs to go, start fresh with a Rogue.

I completely agree that having both the best defence and offence shouldnt be a "HIGHLIGHT" of certain classes.  There are lots of ways to make theives useful, and I intended to address them.  Unfortunately the biggest changes I want to make require code changes, so for the most part it'll be awhile on those.. But simply making their abilities come into play more often is a good start.
etc.......

[Rhinehold]

1. Please go read all the posts i made in the ideas forum.  I really don't feel like condensing them all here, when you specifically said "make separate topics", which I did.  It might not be a bad idea to keep this more class specific and leave "all the changes that are needed" to separate topics for easier discussion, which was the whole point to begin with.

2. I disagree with your statement about Warlocks as well.  It is still my favorite class to play.  My suggestion is simple.  Give them spells not available to the mages or Gypsies.(side note: do the same thing for the Gypsies, missies, and clerics to a certain point).  I really think a lot of problems could be solved by adding spells that boost the character's point of existance.  Example:  Make warlocks the kings of debuffing! 


3. Buffs need to last MUCH longer.  It is my understand that the 10-buff limit is being removed.  If this is so, that negates the purpose and usefullness of 10-buffing to avoid overly-ridiculous boss spells like "endless mass confusion"  or "endless sleep".  Some boss encounters are just dumb.  Make the boss have lots of HP or hit hard, but making one that just confuses all the time, is just silly

4. I agree that Warriors are OP with HIGH AC, and HIGH Damage.  That needs to be addressed.

5. ALL CLASSes and ALL races need to be tuned.  There should be a reason to be something on the Delf for Locks. 

6. Thief should just be deleted.  Let the gypsies steel, for what little point there is to that.

7. There needs to be some MAJOR tuning done to gear and weapon progression for ALL classes.  I hate to be mathematical about it, but just stipulate that every 10 levels should contain at least 3 weapon options, and 1 should be sharp, 1 should be blunt.   My suggestion is tuning existing weapons eg:  raising level req and adjusting damage/stats, lowering level req and adjusting damage/stats, or if need be just adding filler weapons.

Same goes for gear, but not to the same level.  There should be an obious path every 10 levels that says, here is the next set, rather than using some pieces that are level 10, 16, 45, 51, 52, 55,  all for one character.  What is the point of leveling, if there isn't a replacement for EVERY slot at higher levels?

8. Portal rooms to make transit easier quicker.

9. NO LIMMITED ITEMS.  Let me say that again....... NOOOOOO LIMMMMMITED  IIIIITEMMS.  Lims are just stupid for any board that has more than 10 people. 

10. End bosses like: the hanging tree, Ozrinom, Zanthus, need to be retuned so that people can ACTUALLY have a chance to kill them.

11.  Unbreakable loyal keys.

12.  More definable scripting areas.  Example:  Castle level 1 is large enough that regen will pop with just one person scripting it.  Castle level 2, is the same as level 1, but can support another player ;-)  Scripting areas are always the hardest.

13. Find a way to turn off attacks on other players. 

14. -HP when dropped to 20k.  quest flags attainable if you are dropped, but not dead.

15. I have more but i'm tired.  good ideas though!  keep them coming folks!

[DeathCow]

1. Please go read all the posts i made in the ideas forum.  I really don't feel like condensing them all here, when you specifically said "make separate topics", which I did.  It might not be a bad idea to keep this more class specific and leave "all the changes that are needed" to separate topics for easier discussion, which was the whole point to begin with.

No..ok I'll think about it.  Ok I'll do it.  But later.  Ok I'll do it after this! OK OK!

2. I disagree with your statement about Warlocks as well.  It is still my favorite class to play.  My suggestion is simple.  Give them spells not available to the mages or Gypsies.(side note: do the same thing for the Gypsies, missies, and clerics to a certain point).  I really think a lot of problems could be solved by adding spells that boost the character's point of existance.  Example:  Make warlocks the kings of debuffing! 

I understand that some people will disagree with me.  In any arguement someone is always wrong.

3. Buffs need to last MUCH longer.  It is my understand that the 10-buff limit is being removed.  If this is so, that negates the purpose and usefullness of 10-buffing to avoid overly-ridiculous boss spells like "endless mass confusion"  or "endless sleep".  Some boss encounters are just dumb.  Make the boss have lots of HP or hit hard, but making one that just confuses all the time, is just silly

I'm not a fan of the way metro abused confuse and fear abilities.  Its not gonna happen in anything I am involved with.  Infact I'm half tempted to remove most of the confusion abilities in the game so that the mosnters that should have them don't feel like recycled material.  I don't know that all bless spells need to last longer, but I can see that many of them could have their usefulness increased by having their duration/level increase.  I'd need a list of spells that people think need to be addressed to make any definite statement on individual spells.

4. I agree that Warriors are OP with HIGH AC, and HIGH Damage.  That needs to be addressed.

Warriors are over powered, I don't think we'll get anyone arguing against that.

5. ALL CLASSes and ALL races need to be tuned.  There should be a reason to be something on the Delf for Locks. 

I agree with the first part, and have no idea what the second part means.  I'm normally quite fluent in typo, but that one eludes me .

6. Thief should just be deleted.  Let the gypsies steel, for what little point there is to that.

They just need a purpose.  Which I can do my best to create.  I have plenty of concepts that will help fix them, even without adding the coding that I'd like for them.

7. There needs to be some MAJOR tuning done to gear and weapon progression for ALL classes.  I hate to be mathematical about it, but just stipulate that every 10 levels should contain at least 3 weapon options, and 1 should be sharp, 1 should be blunt.   My suggestion is tuning existing weapons eg:  raising level req and adjusting damage/stats, lowering level req and adjusting damage/stats, or if need be just adding filler weapons.

Almost everything in the game could stand to be tweaked and changed, but I think we'd best spend our time adjust things for the low tier classes.  Basically I intended to make a life of a class walkthru for each of the low tier classes and addressing the issues they have at each level range.

Same goes for gear, but not to the same level.  There should be an obious path every 10 levels that says, here is the next set, rather than using some pieces that are level 10, 16, 45, 51, 52, 55,  all for one character.  What is the point of leveling, if there isn't a replacement for EVERY slot at higher levels?

Personally I was never a fan of level restrictions on items, but since they are so totally a part of the game now, I'm willing to work with them.  I don't see it being a huge problem that if you have an exceptional level 10 item, that you'd have to replace it at level 20. 

8. Portal rooms to make transit easier quicker.

I hate the portal rooms that are common place on many edited bbses.  I've made the concession of using the carriage system which was in the game already, I'd even slightly expand the wastelands and NPP, but placing a portal to w/e you wanna go in TS just isnt gonna happen.  Although, I wouldn't be opposed to limited teleporting spells for Mage, or making the obsidian obelisks more useful.

9. NO LIMMITED ITEMS.  Let me say that again....... NOOOOOO LIMMMMMITED  IIIIITEMMS.  Lims are just stupid for any board that has more than 10 people. 

There is just no way that limited items are going away.  Creating a more complex economic system within the realm may help to limit item hoarding, as selling the items will become more desirable. BUT, limited simply wont ever be gone from this game.

10. End bosses like: the hanging tree, Ozrinom, Zanthus, need to be retuned so that people can ACTUALLY have a chance to kill them.

Ozrinom should be toned down so that he isnt so difficult.  The whole Mausoleum area could use some revamping(snicker).  Its really large, making the good quest by far the most difficult. The Hanging Tree isnt that bad, its easy to get to and with the right party killable.  Zanthus really SHOULD be as difficult as he is, but he should be revisitable, or at least you should be able to get your gear back.

11.  Unbreakable loyal keys.

I think rather than that just make lockpicks a more useful skill

12.  More definable scripting areas.  Example:  Castle level 1 is large enough that regen will pop with just one person scripting it.  Castle level 2, is the same as level 1, but can support another player ;-)  Scripting areas are always the hardest.

I'm a fan of scripting areas.  Having lots of areas with slightly different levels of magic/skills/combat needed to max them at the lowest level possible.

13. Find a way to turn off attacks on other players. 

What?

14. -HP when dropped to 20k.  quest flags attainable if you are dropped, but not dead.

Thats just crazy talk.  But you get the quest flags currently if dropped.

[/quote]

[DeathCow]

As far as reccomendations for Mod 10, I'd like to see the questing move away from alignments. The idea was fun for like 10 years, but honestly, it's getting a bit old now. Close up the alignment series with a final 6th quest, then move on to more class or class grouping quests, racial quests, and permanent status increasing quests. 

Thats been my goal from the start, to finish the alignment based quest all together.  I even at one point wanted to kill off the quest leaders

New factions are a huge plus, and facilitate adding all types of new quests that don't have to have anything to do with your alignment.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by factions, but class based questing is in the future.

A lot of the itemization needs a facelift as well. The pickings are pretty sparse post level 50, and in some extremes people are still wearing items from level 10 all the way to 75. A smoother progression of armor suits and accesories from level 1 to max would be nice.

A wide range of new items with varying abilities is in no way out of the question.

New chests are a definate plus. Recycled textblocks from old chests are not.

I fucking hate the chests they added.  If I add chests into the game later, it will be completely different.

Revamp the hard trainer in Nahr's castle.  Add some new spell drops or item drops to certain things.  It would also be nice to have doing the hard trainer rather than the easy trainer pay off for you in mod 10 somehow.

We're considering forcing players to complete the hard trainer before they can complete the 6th quest.  There isnt too much that needs to be done to the castle to make it less annoying.  I HATE the collecting of black spikes, it needs to be adjusted.  I also think that the sphere Nahr is too difficult...or too random really.  I'd make him optional (and have great item drops)and remove the blood bath spell that damages you for going the other way.

As you know I've got an ongoing mud project of my own so I don't want to give too many ideas away, but that should be a basic start.

Don't hold out on me man.

[kalus]

There is just no way that limited items are going away.  Creating a more complex economic system within the realm may help to limit item hoarding, as selling the items will become more desirable. BUT, limited simply wont ever be gone from this game.

What are your reasons for this? Possibly not something to discuss regarding this particular topic but I can't think of any good reason to have limited items.

[DeathCow]

What are your reasons for this? Possibly not something to discuss regarding this particular topic but I can't think of any good reason to have limited items.

Its a legacy issue.  Being able to hit Top 10, and see your rank amoung peers, knowing you have the only one of a particular item.. its what makes majormud what it is.   These are features that really are part of what makes majormud, majormud. 

I feel strongly about this, and if for no other reason than I believe limited items should be apart of the game, they will remain a part of the game if I'm working on it.  I've played in realm with limiteds removed and it took away part of the uniqueness I'm used to for my characters.

[kalus]

Its a legacy issue.  Being able to hit Top 10, and see your rank amoung peers, knowing you have the only one of a particular item.. its what makes majormud what it is.   These are features that really are part of what makes majormud, majormud. 

It also prevents any sort of gameplay other than scripting. Isn't this GreaterMUD not MajorMUD?

[DeathCow]

Ok if I remove lims, I will also removing scripting.

[kalus]

It also prevents any sort of gameplay other than scripting. Isn't this GreaterMUD not MajorMUD?

You need to keep people playing. The only way to do that is by giving them an incentive to advance their character. majormud dies very quickly once the max level is reached.

Have you ever played any big mmporgs like WOW or LOTRO? Have a quick look at the way they manage their items. There are no limited items, but people play for years at the max level trying to get more and more powerful items. That's where the gameplay is. The items are unlimited, but very hard to get. You see a character with the best weapon in the game and you know he has gone through hell to get it. Its a similar concept to limited items but anyone has the chance to get any item.

[DeathCow]

I'm not against maximum level content behaving like that.

[Gardner Denver]

3. Buffs need to last MUCH longer.  It is my understand that the 10-buff limit is being removed.  If this is so, that negates the purpose and usefullness of 10-buffing to avoid overly-ridiculous boss spells like "endless mass confusion"  or "endless sleep".  Some boss encounters are just dumb.  Make the boss have lots of HP or hit hard, but making one that just confuses all the time, is just silly

I disagree.  If the boss spells are stupid then rework them but do not make player spells equally stupid to compensate.  10 spelling has already been removed from GreaterMUD but the developers are going to have to have some discussion about it.  It's unbalanced the combat system even more that normal.  Mage/Bard/Priest combo is just stupid to watch at lvl 45+

5. ALL CLASSes and ALL races need to be tuned. 

So long as the tuning is done in a balanced method I would agree.

6. Thief should just be deleted.  Let the gypsies steel, for what little point there is to that.

Plenty of point to it on a pvp realm.  Can't kill em to get an item?  Steal it!

8. Portal rooms to make transit easier quicker.

Again as long as you don't go crazy with it, but the current baseline realm is fairly well covered if you use the NPP.  Shortcuts should not be immune from the risk of death (LOTH)....

9. NO LIMMITED ITEMS.  Let me say that again....... NOOOOOO LIMMMMMITED  IIIIITEMMS.  Lims are just stupid for any board that has more than 10 people.

Fix a system where instead of a fixed # of limited items, they are scaled to the number of active players in a realm. 

10. End bosses like: the hanging tree, Ozrinom, Zanthus, need to be retuned so that people can ACTUALLY have a chance to kill them.

Not sure where you were going with this one.  You can return to any of these except Zanthus already.

11.  Unbreakable loyal keys.

Why?  To save your Megamud 5 extra minutes of walking around looking for a key? 

12.  More definable scripting areas.  Example:  Castle level 1 is large enough that regen will pop with just one person scripting it.  Castle level 2, is the same as level 1, but can support another player ;-)  Scripting areas are always the hardest.

There are currently over 20,000 rooms in the dats.  Megamud moves through about 1/3 of them, and loops through even fewer.  There are many good areas out there, just got to find them and write your own custom loop for them.

13. Find a way to turn off attacks on other players. 
14. -HP when dropped to 20k.  quest flags attainable if you are dropped, but not dead.

I can not even begin to state how much is wrong with those concepts.

[Darmius]

Before you guys start balancing classes, weapons, armor etc...  I would suggest some sort of testing framework is put in place where you can run long duration tests. It is way to hard and time consuming (also controversial) to make guesstimates on how a change will effect a class and the entire class balance. This would also allow you to easily test out new scripting area's, boss encounters, etc... all without having to rely on a group of testers.

[Rhinehold]

I am not going to bother re-quoting, so, forgive me.

1. - Buffs: I would just like to see the regular buffs like blur and rfir, last MUCH longer.  Sped is understandably short, but could benefit from lasting a BIT longer.  Ideally buffs should last 30 minutes. Make them cost more mana if you like.  Making them scale with level isn't a bad idea either.  Or else add higher level versions of the same spell. 

Example: Level 1 Blur = more AC  ------- Level 50 Blurry State = more ac, dodge, and magic avoidance.

2. - Portal Rooms: As long as NPP is worked in such a way that you can actually get places, I'm ok with that. a 50 pace walk to prevent need of a 600 pace walk is fine by me.  My only complaint is going through there at lower levels, not to mention getting lost :-(  Carriages are fine by me for a few way points.  Way points are something I mentioned already in another thread BTW.

3. - Limiteds.  If you wan't to keep limiteds then fine.  I will unlimit them on my own board, but I have to agree with Kalus though.  I would rather weapons were just harder to get than limited.  Limited wepons juts means you "got there first"  it doesn't mean your a good player, or you and your friends are good players.  Receiving a weapon that drops for HARD bosses(not stupid hard like hanging tree / ozrinom) then THAT is an accomplisment. 

Example:  Thrag drops some of the best items in the game, that are used for MANY levels.  Killing thrag is not an accomplisment, and using his limited gear is shouldn't be prestigious, you just got there first.  Chances are you got there first because you have the ability to work from home, play at work, or the other guys went on vacation for the weekend......

4.  Keys:  I want unbreakable loyal keys for when you are dead behind a door that is REALLY hard to get a key for, especially when YOU ARE NAKED, AND HAVE NO WEAPON!

5. Rooms:  There maybe 20,000 rooms, but how many are ACTUALLY used for scripting, and how many are just an endless series of rooms with few mobs like "the dragonteeth hills" or "cleared fields" or "the silver river" or "the dwarven mines" or "the Mod 9 Mountians"  When you REALLY look at how many areas are USEABLE for scripting its not much.  It's not a matter of making a custom loop, its the sheer lack of mobs and mob spawns in a dense area.  If you had a huge area of rooms but the creatures there dropped 5 times the xp of any other regular mob, than the sparseness would be ok, and the XP/HR would be on par with an equal level area with densely packed mob spawn rooms(aka storm fortress, or Delf city).

6.  #13 & 14 you should just ignore, I was tired, and that made no sense. 

7. Questing.  One of the KEY elements to MajorMUD is the Alignement quests.  It is the heart and soul of the game.  removing it entirely in favor of a single quest, that is lore driven, which involves EVERYONE, takes away the purpose for alignement, so we might as well remove EVIL - Saint while we are at it.... I'm serious about that too.  There is zero point to alignment without the quests.

THAT SAID, i agree that there needs to be many more stat enhancing / XP quests like She-Dragon, Ice bitch, high druid, aparatus, etc etc.  These help to elevate the character beyond JUST xp.  I hope to be appart of writing MANY more of these. I would like to see one every 5-10 levels for sure!

8. Chests - I like the idea of the chest droping the spoils, but the sheer amount of complete shit in them is just stupid and should be reworked.  Few items, that perhaps just sell for MORE gold.

10. Shop Regen:  -  needs to be looked at.  Anything that is sold should never be out of stock for more than a few hours.

11.  Items/Level Restrictions/ Gear etc:  The point I was trying to make is that Thrag drops some of the best-in-slot items for several classes, and he is a level 20 boss?  Why are people still using those items at level 75?  The whole point of these games is to get levels, and get better stuff.  So why was something better for those slots never put in?  40 levels later and still using the same piece?  That is just silly.  More items needed!


12. typos: 

5. ALL CLASSes and ALL races need to be tuned.  There should be a reason to be something on the Delf for Locks.

I agree with the first part, and have no idea what the second part means.  I'm normally quite fluent in typo, but that one eludes me.

Sorry about that.  Also typed while tired.  To tired to proof read before hitting the sack.  I was saying that for almost every class there is one MAYBE two acceptable classes.  I am saying the races should be retuned to give some of the "other races" a reason to be chosen.  One example is Delf Warlock.  There is almost no reason to be any other race, because of the Delf racial abilities.

13.  Food/Drink.  I mentioned this elsewhere, but I would really like to see Food(hp regen) and drink (mana regen) added to the game to reduce down time, and negate the need to carry a "regen set".

14. Dead Quest Flags.  You may be able to get quest flagged if dropped. But chances are high that if you dropped during a boss fight, on a board with -30 HP, you are either already dead, or will be next round.   -2000 HP should be a new standard!


Good conversations and ideas there fellas!

Keep them coming. 

Cheers,

-DR

[Soulskill]

Regarding buff length: I think there needs to be a clearer delineation between long-term buffs and short-term buffs. Buffs that are intended for use in one fight should have durations which reflect that; buffs that a class will be running 100% of the time (or will be useless without) should last longer. Re-buffing is annoying and often an unnecessary mana drain. When it comes to boss debuffs, I think any spell that removes control over your character should be very short in duration. Nobody has fun fumbling in confusion or running in fear for ages while a completely beatable boss destroys them.

Regarding class balance: This may sound odd, but don't put too much time into it. Most of the egregious problems can be solved with a quick pass. The thing about balancing a game with this many classes is that while solving the first 90% of balance issues is fast and easy, solving the last 10% is prohibitively hard. Things don't have to be perfect; they just have to be better.

Regarding portals: The wastelands and the NPP work reasonably well, but there are definitely gaps in the coverage. I'd say just ask people to come up with a list of places that take a ridiculously long time to reach, give the list a sanity check, and make some new portals. The goal should be to make it easier for people actually doing things (i.e. not afk scripting) to get around within the game. Once a path goes over a couple hundred rooms, it gets pretty boring unless it's not trivial for your character to traverse.

Regarding scripting areas: This could be solved, at least in part, by adjusting exp tables, monster abilities, and spawn rates in the lesser-used areas. Rather than spending time making new areas or remodeling old ones, why not just tweak monsters to provide better results? This does not necessarily mean making an area easier.

Regarding unbreakable keys: I'd say some keys should indeed be unbreakable and loyal. Others should remain single-use. The best way to determine which is to figure out what keys are annoying to find/use for people who are actively doing something.

I can not even begin to state how much is wrong with those concepts.

I think what Rhinehold was trying to say about PvP is that there should be an option for the sysop to disable it for his realm. One only has to look to the MMORPG genre to see the massive, massive demand for servers where people who just want to do PvE.

As far as DeathHP goes, obviously there's already a setting. I don't know what most people use these days, but the default of -20 (or whatever) is laughable when bosses hit as hard as they do. It's something that should scale with your own HP, or a least be high enough that you can rely on having a round in which to make the "dropped to the ground" effect meaningful.

Quest suggestions:
For quests, I think you want to maximize the bang for your buck. Creating a unique class quest for (say) each of the classes is cool, but the problem is that each individual character is only seeing 1/15th of the new quests. What I'd do would be to stick with the alignment style quests, but to also open them up to other alignments for a lesser reward. For example: the Good-aligned quest sends you off to save a princess. When Good-aligned players complete it, they get a great reward. When Neutral or Evil players complete it, they get a small reward. The Evil-aligned quest could send you off spit in the king's coffee, rewarding Evil players more than Good or Neutral players. That way, every player gets to do three new quests and receive one big reward and two small rewards. You could extend this to class quests or archetype quests (e.g. smash, meditate, super stealth). A thief doesn't get to learn how to smash, but maybe he can get +1 max damage. No meditate, but maybe a few points of Intellect.

Misc. ramblings:
Spend some time (but, again, not too much time) balancing gear. Find slots where the top limited item is ridiculously more powerful than its unlimited replacement and narrow that gap. I don't think a testing framework is necessary since it's trivial to compare item stats. (Should I lower the golden pike's speed to 100? No, no I should not.)

I like the idea of making CP useful once you've maxed out your stats (or at least your primary stats). No idea if it's possible without code changes.

I also like the suggestions about shop regen and food/drink. The downtime after getting low is excessive at high levels.

Most quest item drops should probably be less rare. (Somebody mentioned black chitin -- ugh.)

[Rhinehold]

I agree with Soulskill 100% on all points.  I couldn't have said it better myself.  Please take a second to REALLY look at what he is talking about. 

At the end of the day we ALL have different views of what Mod 10 and or greaterMUD should be, but that is what hexing is for ;-)  So go with the popular vote, and let people just hex things they don't like on their own boards.

I think most of you incredibly intelligent people will agree with Soulskill's points.

-Duke Rhinehold