Quests for training

[Ian]

Heres an idea ripped from an OLD RPG, Mordor.  After training for a level, the master says to you:
"Before you can train again, you must:
a) defeat a <rare monster>
b) return a <rare item>
etc

So you might have to bring back the golden chalice in order to train again, or the greater red dragon scale.  Or you might have to kill the aurumvorax, or a crocodile before levelling again.

To make it interesting, you could make the items one of the 1% drop ones like crocodile teeth, pixie wings or pulsating heart

Anyway, just an idea to throw out there.

[Psuedo]

I like that idea alot.. good call.

Could also make it to where the trainer will transport you to a room with a monster that you have to defeat. Something like that is cool though.

[The Crazy Animal]

I'm going to say this first sorry about the length of this I really tried to keep it short.

I'm normally all for quests just not mandatory ones. This is mostly because as the levels go on we end up with what RPG designers call level grind. This happens when the length of the level surpasses a normal person?s patience level. This is probably THE biggest problem that MMUD or any other text based RPG has to face. Even the more modern MORPG games have this problem it?s that had to get rid of in this style of game. Anything mandatory that we tack on to a level adds to the length of the level grind.

I do agree though we need more quests in the game. However the type of quests we need to be thinking about should be hand playable, enjoyable, and help alleviate the level grind that inevitably develops out of the increasing exp to level formula.

In order to fulfill those 3 basic things in quests the following types of things should be done or at least considered:

*Any quest given out per level should reward a player with an amount of exp on par with the exp needed for a level in the level range taking part in the quest. (It?s a bit of a balancing act between if the quests don?t give enough exp to cover the time away from their scripting then they won?t bother doing the quest but if it gives to much then players will progress too fast through the game. (Progressing to fast is the lesser of the two evils but it does present problems to content designers.)

*Quests need to involve more then kill this monster, get that item bring it back for a reward. No offence, but RPGs over the years have done that plot to death. While they can contain elements of kill and retrieve they need to present a wide range of ways to be played. By increasing the ways to finish a quest and rewarding them for doing it rewards a player?s ability to think laterally and will encourage them to do it else where in the game. This also allows a player to get into the game a little more. Example: ?what is better finding a locked door and knowing instantly that you will need to kill a monster that will drop the key at a 1-5% drop rate or being able to try different ways to get in such as to bribe your way in, look for a window to get in, finding a NPC to pick the lock for you, taking your sword or mace and hacking the door down.? Rewarding someone for figuring out how to climb in a window to get into a locked building rather then just killing something to get the key can easily be done by giving a player an, ability and doing a ability check at the reward portion of a quest. We could even prevent a player that used the killing method from later going back and using the window to get the extra reward.

*There should be enough of these level dependant quests that the players find it harder to create walk throughs for all of them. (We don?t want to repeat MMUD mistakes by making a quest so easy and redundant that people just script through them.) If we can create enough quests with enough variations then we can give them to a NPC to hand out using a random function textblock which would give one quest per level out at a time to a player. This would go a long way in removing the redundancy of the game. This random textblock could be coded much like a mmud chest which we all know they are enjoyable to open because you get a surprise reward.? The randomness could be increased with extra logic tests against the realms, ?game day?, ?game time?, ?player race?, ?player class?, or even ?real time day?. These types of random quests could also be used in quest series or just to randomize other later quests. Example: A player finishing random level quest A might unlock quest sets (X, X2, X3..), (Y, Y2, Y3..), and (Z, Z2, Z3?) but a player finishing random level quest B would unlock quest series X, W, and P. This would allow a great deal of replay value coming out of the side quests alone.

*When a player is on a quest is a great time to offer temporary side quests by using an equal to logic test on the other quests ability.? These side quests can offer small rewards to help a player out during their quest or later in the game. Side quests like these encourage a player to search around more while they are actually on a quest and not finish right away. A design trick like this allows a shorter quest to seem like it last longers as well. People that miss these during quest opportunities then also have something to try to find on the replay as well.

Could also make it to where the trainer will transport you to a room with a monster that you have to defeat. Something like that is cool though.

I'm not sure how to put this so it doesn't make me sound like an ass, but I'm just going to say it any way. If the trainer just up and transports you to the location of the monster doesn't that kind of remove most of the idea behind having a quest like that?

However, If you don't want to walk to a monster an interesting idea could be taken from LORD where the player needs to spar with the trainer. If the player wins then they either get the level or can continue training with that trainer for the next level. If they loose then they need to try again later.

Well thats all I got to say for now.

[DeathCow]

Most the NPCs i've designed so far have things going on in their lives.  With the exception of the gimps living in the starting village.  The npcs should eventually have schedules and move about doing their own little things(going to the bar/sleeping/forming parties attacking monsters/hiring each other/PCs/Pilgramages).  As a result of having lives the npcs interact with each other, and even talk to one another. 

So in this, i've some what revamped the way I think about quests.  Rather than quests being about the reward, for the most part they are about the actual journey.  You'll never know if this quest is worth this much exp, or you get this item..yada yada.  The quests are things to do.

The world itself should feel like its something you can interact with.  As much as that is possible.  So that the actual playing of the game and doing things <not just plugging away at levels>is the reward. 

That being said, I still like zoundz of exp and armour of infinite slaughter.

[The Crazy Animal]

Most the NPCs i've designed so far have things going on in their lives.? With the exception of the gimps living in the starting village.? The npcs should eventually have schedules and move about doing their own little things(going to the bar/sleeping/forming parties attacking monsters/hiring each other/PCs/Pilgramages).? As a result of having lives the npcs interact with each other, and even talk to one another.?

This is very good, giving NPC?s more of an actual character life is something that should have been done in mmud a long time ago. NPCs though do also need to show character progression and know what is going on in the realm. Knowing what is going on in the realm could be done by using tracking variables that can be tested against in their AI script. This however is currently out of the reach of textblocks.

Example:
Get playerbase_abilitycount 157 = X: Get playerbase_abilitycount 156 = Y
If ((Y > X) (set message = 1006)
ElseIf (Y < X) (set message = 1005)
Else (set message = 1004)
) End if

Something like this could then be used inside a NPCs AI script to vary a NPC?s messages based on if the number of total players doing one quest is greater then the number doing another quest. Depending on the complexity of the NPC script you could even go down to the abilities value level for the tests. Example continued below:

Ask Grey Lord State of the power struggle
If Y > X:
Grey Lord says all is not balanced in the world the forces of evil have grown too strong. Young one, if you believe you are up for a challenge I might just have a ?task? for you.
If Y < X:
Grey Lord says all is not balanced in the world the forces of good have grown too strong. Young one, if you believe you are up for a challenge I might just have a ?task? for you.
If Y = X:
Grey Lord says all is balanced in the world right now young one, come back later to see if I have any tasks for you to complete.

When the player continues:
Ask Grey Lord task

The response textblock then checks that player?s ability value for the set of neutral quests and hands out the next appropriate quest in that series. If there is more then 1 version of the quest then the quests could be further randomized to an extent in how they are handed out. Which will help reduce the in game quest repetition of what players are doing at any given time.

There is another problem that is often encountered in quests and that comes out of other players scripting more often or not. This comes out of having to waiting for a boss to Regen, which breaks content continuity during quests. This problem can be solved by having a check done on the monster such as:

If ((NPC_alive (Monster #) = = 0)
Then Summon (monster #) (map#) (room#).
) End If

A test like this could then be implanted into a text block on the way to the boss?s lair and only triggered by players on the quest.

By keeping the game play dynamically based on passed or current events and using dynamic overrides allows the NPCs to appear more integrated in to the content of the game. So while giving the NPC a life is good for appearances the ability for them to be kept up to date in the realm and more PC Aware is what really will drive the effect home.

So in this, i've some what revamped the way I think about quests.? Rather than quests being about the reward, for the most part they are about the actual journey.? You'll never know if this quest is worth this much exp, or you get this item..yada yada.? The quests are things to do.

This is good too but unfortunately players are often like lab mice you have to reward them with something for their effort if you want them to even get into the maze. I?m not talking massive reward here but enough to make the player say this is worth it let me try another quest rather then leaving my script on. The need for a reward is because MMUD generated a huge problem with content vs. code play. Code play happens when players either learn too many of the rules in the game world and begin to think playing in terms of the game engines code; or something is wrong with how the content is presented. The target audience that we are currently catering the game to is so use to playing the code rather then playing the content that, content play could be very strange and unfriendly to them. We can taper some of the reward off as the game progresses but at least in the beginning there needs to be enough playing the code to give script raised MMUDers incentive to remember how to play the content.

Quests however aren?t just things to do though quests are an integral part of the content that is meant to immerse the player into the role they dream of playing. Your right about the journey being the main reward, but it needs to be geared at making the player feel like they are playing the part of the Hero, the Villain, or any other role they choose to play.

The world itself should feel like its something you can interact with.? As much as that is possible.? So that the actual playing of the game and doing things <not just plugging away at levels>is the reward.?

The problem of people just plugging away at levels is going to exist so long as players are aware of better things to do at higher levels. Take for example the level drag that starts early in mmud from levels 1-10. This level drag continues because the player is constantly aware that all the quests take place after level 10. While players in level bracket 1 ? 10 do have some things they can do like trying to explore areas that are to strong for them there is actually very little content geared directly to them. The amount of things to do in any level should be roughly equal. When the opportunities become disproportionate or non-existent players will soon turn to plugging away to reach those levels where there is more to do.

[DeathCow]

This is very good, giving NPC?s more of an actual character life is something that should have been done in mmud a long time ago. NPCs though do also need to show character progression and know what is going on in the realm. Knowing what is going on in the realm could be done by using tracking variables that can be tested against in their AI script. This however is currently out of the reach of textblocks.

Uh no it isn't

Example:
Get playerbase_abilitycount 157 = X: Get playerbase_abilitycount 156 = Y
If ((Y > X) (set message = 1006)
ElseIf (Y < X) (set message = 1005)
Else (set message = 1004)
) End if

Something like this could then be used inside a NPCs AI script to vary a NPC?s messages based on if the number of total players doing one quest is greater then the number doing another quest. Depending on the complexity of the NPC script you could even go down to the abilities value level for the tests. Example continued below:

Ask Grey Lord State of the power struggle
If Y > X:
Grey Lord says all is not balanced in the world the forces of evil have grown too strong. Young one, if you believe you are up for a challenge I might just have a ?task? for you.
If Y < X:
Grey Lord says all is not balanced in the world the forces of good have grown too strong. Young one, if you believe you are up for a challenge I might just have a ?task? for you.
If Y = X:
Grey Lord says all is balanced in the world right now young one, come back later to see if I have any tasks for you to complete.

When the player continues:
Ask Grey Lord task

The response textblock then checks that player?s ability value for the set of neutral quests and hands out the next appropriate quest in that series. If there is more then 1 version of the quest then the quests could be further randomized to an extent in how they are handed out. Which will help reduce the in game quest repetition of what players are doing at any given time.

There is another problem that is often encountered in quests and that comes out of other players scripting more often or not. This comes out of having to waiting for a boss to Regen, which breaks content continuity during quests. This problem can be solved by having a check done on the monster such as:

If ((NPC_alive (Monster #) = = 0)
Then Summon (monster #) (map#) (room#).
) End If

A test like this could then be implanted into a text block on the way to the boss?s lair and only triggered by players on the quest.

Textblocks can do this...

By keeping the game play dynamically based on passed or current events and using dynamic overrides allows the NPCs to appear more integrated in to the content of the game. So while giving the NPC a life is good for appearances the ability for them to be kept up to date in the realm and more PC Aware is what really will drive the effect home.

Bring me back the cookies of misfortune, so i may feast! 

This is good too but unfortunately players are often like lab mice you have to reward them with something for their effort if you want them to even get into the maze. I?m not talking massive reward here but enough to make the player say this is worth it let me try another quest rather then leaving my script on. The need for a reward is because MMUD generated a huge problem with content vs. code play. Code play happens when players either learn too many of the rules in the game world and begin to think playing in terms of the game engines code; or something is wrong with how the content is presented. The target audience that we are currently catering the game to is so use to playing the code rather then playing the content that, content play could be very strange and unfriendly to them. We can taper some of the reward off as the game progresses but at least in the beginning there needs to be enough playing the code to give script raised MMUDers incentive to remember how to play the content.

The avg mud players knows almost nothing about the system.  The most any players i encounter know is what explorer tells them.

Quests however aren?t just things to do though quests are an integral part of the content that is meant to immerse the player into the role they dream of playing. Your right about the journey being the main reward, but it needs to be geared at making the player feel like they are playing the part of the Hero, the Villain, or any other role they choose to play.

Cookie monster.

The problem of people just plugging away at levels is going to exist so long as players are aware of better things to do at higher levels. Take for example the level drag that starts early in mmud from levels 1-10. This level drag continues because the player is constantly aware that all the quests take place after level 10. While players in level bracket 1 ? 10 do have some things they can do like trying to explore areas that are to strong for them there is actually very little content geared directly to them. The amount of things to do in any level should be roughly equal. When the opportunities become disproportionate or non-existent players will soon turn to plugging away to reach those levels where there is more to do.

Rable rable rable.

[The Crazy Animal]

Uh no it isn't

Well then show the function calls. I have seen no where in the game that there is a function targeting the entire player base.

Textblocks can do this...

like I said above show me the functions then and until then its just you pushing a retirement age scripting language. Seriously though it would really help us to have a list of all of the textblock functions and commands.

The avg mud players knows almost nothing about the system.  The most any players i encounter know is what explorer tells them.

When a Player plays the code they don't have to know the whole system just enough of the variables to change their style of gameplay. It can be as little info as who drops this +1 item or not buying a rope from a 500% markup shop or I can set my script to take out that boss every 5 hours so I get an extra 10k exp or avoid this room because it has a trap.

[Secret]

Not trying to derail the conversation but the "textblocks" are being called (from the db) and being processed by C# code which is capable of doing almost anything. It's just a matter of how to store/retrieve/track any given variable in the "system."

[The Crazy Animal]

Not trying to derail the conversation but the "textblocks" are being called (from the db) and being processed by C# code which is capable of doing almost anything. It's just a matter of how to store/retrieve/track any given variable in the "system."

I realize that and that's not the issue, the issue is if they can do it now without extra coding or not. We really just need a correct list of all the functions of the textblocks, so we can sort out what can and can not currently be done with the present system.

From that point tho I'll say it again I would like to see the textblocks get replaced (while keeping legacy functions of course) by a non-archaic script language that doesn't depend on obscure variables and formatting to change the functionality of the commands. This however is something DC and I just don't seem to agree on right now..

[KalEl]

Is this the quests for training topic?

:p